Ollie Sleightholme: Saints, Setbacks and Self-Belief

Northampton Saints and England winger Ollie Sleightholme joins Arthur Dickins to share the setbacks, lessons and mindset behind his rise through professional rugby.

Ollie explains what it feels like to miss out on a major moment with your teammates, how repeated injuries changed his relationship with rugby and why finding goals away from the game helped him through rehabilitation.

He also looks back at his pathway into the Saints Academy, being dropped before earning another opportunity and the environment that helped him develop into one of the Premiership’s most dangerous finishers.

Away from the highlight reels, Ollie discusses feeling sick before matches, dealing with mistakes during games and staying grounded as his profile has grown. You’ll also hear about his training week, post-match food, celebration rules and whether he could move from the wing to centre.

Most importantly, Ollie shares practical advice for young players. He explains why you must focus on your next job, what coaches look for when selecting a team and why every rugby match should be enjoyed while you have the opportunity to play it.

In this episode:

• How Ollie responds to injuries and setbacks 
• Why Saints released him before signing him again 
• What nerves really feel like before a professional match 
• The mindset that helps him recover from mistakes 
• The skills and qualities coaches want from a winger 

For more information on the following topics, give Rugby Legends a follow:

Ollie Sleightholme interview
 Ollie Sleightholme Northampton Saints
 Ollie Sleightholme England Rugby
 how to become a professional rugby winger
 advice for young rugby players
 how rugby players handle injuries
 professional rugby injury recovery
 how to bounce back from rugby mistakes
 how to get selected for a rugby team
 best skills for a rugby winger
 Northampton Saints Academy pathway
 how professional rugby players train
 dealing with nerves before rugby matches
 rugby mindset and self belief
 life as a professional rugby player

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Transcript

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Hi Everyone, I'm Arthur Dickins and this is my Rugby Legends podcast. In each episode, I interview an amazing rugby player or coach to get their insight and advice for young rugby players just like me, who are keen to learn and get better. In this episode, I'm speaking with Northampton Saints' Ollie Sleightholme, one of the quickest and most clinical wingers in the Gallagher Prem. Ollie started his rugby journey as a 6-year-old at Northampton Old Scouts, following in the footsteps of his father, England International John Sleightholme. He came from the Saints Academy, made his premiership debut in 2018 and scored within 15 seconds of coming on the pitch. He's gone on to become one of the most exciting wingers in the English game. Finishing as a Premiership top Try scorer in the 23/24 season with 14 tries and scoring in the final that season, as Saints claimed their first league title in a decade. He's since made his England debut and scored four tries during the 2024 Autumn Nation series. I hope you find Ollie's knowledge and wisdom as helpful as I did. Enjoy! firstly, Ollie, I just want to say thank you so much for taking the time to be on my podcast. I really appreciate it. No worries, buddy no worries at all. And yes, I do remember you from the prem final when you mentioned coming to ask me about the score, were you with one of your mates? Yes, I was with my cousin and my brother. Ah, nice. Yeah, I did, but I do remember, I can't even remember what I said, but I think it was wildly off. Good win in the end though. Yeah, exactly. That's all that matters. It's all that matters. Firstly, Ollie, congrats on Saints winning the prem. Was there a bit of mixed emotions for you with not playing? yes and no. I think obviously it's hard to watch people go and win stuff, but then at the same time they're all your mates and you know how hard they've been. Everyone's been trying and everyone's a part of that throughout the year. And obviously you wouldn't want it to end any other way and you sometimes you do miss out and that's just part of rugby, really. It's part of what you've got to learn to deal with and you look two, three years ago when we won, I was playing and then I look back and I probably didn't realise the effect it had on the lads that weren't playing at the time.'cause I, you hadn't been in that situation before. And then once you're in that situation, you actually have a lot of respect for those lads and a lot of understanding of what they go through. Not playing a hundred percent. I saw Eduardo there, he was there. I dunno if it was a YouTube vlog, but I dunno what he was doing. But we kept trying to take the GoPro off him 'cause he was being a bit of a Muppet with it. He was trying to film us on the bus on the way down. He was just like screaming and shouting him running around with it on a fisheye. GoPro, you're like, Edo, sit down please. That's enough. How do you handle your injury, Setbacks and having to watch from the sidelines? yeah, it's, it is difficult. I think I've had quite a lot now, so yes, I've got a bit used to it. one of my big things with it is trying to find something else to do within that sort of rehab injury period and taking yourself away from rugby and giving yourself other focuses and other goals. Otherwise, if rugby becomes your one thing that you're focusing on when you're injured, it becomes a really difficult period of time because all you can think about is getting back and that can become quite consuming really. Yeah. When we interviewed Ollie Lawrence, he actually said when he had his Achilles injury, he said he was learning French. Yeah, exactly. People do loads of different things. I get out of the house and do some of my sort of outdoorsy stuff and bits like that and try and just, as much as I can when injured, but try, and get away from it a little bit. yeah, I've also got a, young daughter and another one on the way, so that sort of keeps my hands full anyway, without having to try too hard anyway. Which of your injuries would you say was the worst one? I broke my leg and ruptured some ligaments in my ankle, which like was probably the most painful I would say. And probably these like what you'd probably class as the biggest injury. but then again, I had quite a few concussions and I was out for a long period of time with that. And I think sometimes that what people don't see is that can actually have more of an effect on you as a player because there isn't a, you are going to be back in two months, three months, four months. It's a bit open-ended 'cause they don't know how long it's going to take to heal or when you're going to be ready. So that for me was probably the hardest one to deal with and what I, in my head would class as my biggest injury. I think a lot of people look at, I presume a lot of people would categorise like breaking your leg as, a bigger injury than a concussion. Obviously a breaking your leg at least you know when you're going to be back sort of thing. Yeah, a hundred percent. I fully agree with that. I suppose like with, Ollie Lawrence, when he had his injury, he got, he set I think it was six months he's set to get back and I suppose that's a lot better than with a concussion and you dunno really, and you can't really do much to help it. Yeah. And it's also like you, you come back from a concussion and there's that sort of little bit of doubt in your mind. Like when you come back from a broken leg you can scan it and see that it's not broken anymore and that your ligaments are fine and everything's, you can't really do that with concussions. you can, but you don't know how, if you get hit on the head again, how that's going to affect you or what that's going to do, how would you deal with that, those sense of doubts? maybe it was a bit of a put my head in the sand really. I was like, I'm just going to trust that the people that are, the professionals that are dealing with this know they know far more than I will and ever will about this. So I have to trust what they're saying. I think if you start not trusting what they're saying or questioning it too much or worrying about the effects of stuff, then you never will enjoy it and you'll always be worrying about it. You make the decision to play, you just got to get on and try and enjoy it. Yeah. I had a lot of people say, trust the process or God's plan. Yeah, exactly. Like you've got to trust the, these people that are highly intelligent, that research brains and stuff and muscles and bones for years and they are the people that know best. So you've got to trust what they're telling you. Going back to the start, you went to Northampton School for boys. Can you tell us about your time there? Yeah. so I love my time there. I think it solidified to me obviously growing up before that rugby's competitive obviously. But I think it, it, that's when it becomes really serious at schoolboy level where you get proper big comp, like national competitions and stuff. And it, that's when I got the real drive to want to win and want to play to the, top level. obviously I play with a lot of my friends now and a lot of, the lads I play with, I had class as mates, but when you're at school, you are literally playing with your 23, 24, 25 best friends and very close mates that you have at school. You are all playing together on a team. I don't you'll ever really get that again. And I think if you look at what rugby clubs try and do and how they try and get, like team bonding stuff, they're trying to essentially replicate schoolboy rugby and that everyone's mates and is just playing for their mates and playing for the fun of it. That's what they're trying to replicate. Northampton do that very well and it does remind me of playing at school and I think that's one of the real strengths of it. Did You have at any point where you thought, I'm going to go pro, like you knew you were a pro? no. I, didn't really think I was going to go pro until I got the contract, to be honest. I had been, I actually got dropped from the Saints Academy when I was 15 and got back in when I was 17. I think that might be a bit off, but roughly that sort of period. I was, yeah, I was, I got released before it went into sort of the like junior academy and, then, got picked back up for the U18 but yeah, so I didn't really, I thought I got picked back up and I thought, oh, they just, need another number, blah, blah, blah. they've lost someone and then eventually played some England U18 stuff and then I was thinking, oh, maybe, but still I was like, oh, there's a lot of good wingers already in the academy at Saints and stuff. And then it was about Christmas time of my year 13 year that I got offered a contract. And yeah, it was a bit of a shock to me during that time. Do you look at any other academies?'cause like when we interviewed Tommy Freeman, he went from Leicester to Saints because most people go from one academy to another, not saints to Saints. If I hadn't have got a contract from Saints, I probably wouldn't have gone down the rugby line professionally. Me at that time period of time, Northampton was home. I wanted to play for Saints, and I think I was in a bit of a mindset that if I couldn't play for Saints at that point, I probably wouldn't have. I wouldn't have played, I'd have, I would've gone on with my studies or I'd have found something to do that I enjoyed working for and stuff like that. I think that's probably what and that probably is quite a common theme. You get through a lot of academies, and stuff. There is probably a lot of people that do sort of get missed because they don't go to other academies. Say you've got an academy that's got four good centres or already in this academy and one signing from that year and you've got another one, he might not get contract, but if he was a, separate academy that ha only had forwards coming through, then oh he might have got a contract there. But I think they sometimes get missed a bit. I think we definitely, they definitely did get missed. I think it's probably a lot better now. I think agents are a lot better at picking lads up younger and giving them advice on what to do. I think I was lucky enough to have my agent from 18 years old. 17. 17 years old and he's been very good and, looked after me. But I think a lot of lads at my, in my era probably didn't have that and probably missed out. Was there any particular jobs would you say that you would've gone to if you didn't play rugby? I think if I hadn't played I wanted to be a gamekeeper. If I hadn't played rugby, I was going to be a gamekeeper. still want to be a gamekeeper, but a bit past it now. I think it's a bit of a, bit of a hard job to drop back into. So yeah. Cool job. Yeah. Would've been a cool job. Hard work, but cool. One sec. Stitch enough. Sorry. My dog decides it wants to bark at everything. Yeah. What kind of breed dog do you have? I've got two. I've got a miniature sausage dog, which he's the one that barks at the time and then I've got a little working cocker, which I actually dunno where he is. He's probably in the garden digging a hole or something stupid like that. Yeah, we've actually got two working cockers. Yeah. Oh nice. What are yours called? Roscoe and Cooper. Oh, nice. Nice. Let's see if I can get him to go. He might cut. I called. Good. Oh he is coming. Come here. Yep. Come. Yep. Here he is. Really A big dog. Say hello you big lump. Come down. Hi. He's mental. He's been out this morning shooting with me and he is still mental go away. I see. How important has your mindset been compared to your physical ability in getting where you are? yeah, definitely as, if not more important. I think you see a lot of people, we see a lot of people in the world that have the physical attributes to be professional sportsmen and be in this is in any sport, but aren't, and I think the one factor that they might not have that. The ones that make it have is that mindset and how they can really put their mind to wanting to be something and, becoming the best version of themselves. And I think that's a very key element. And I think there's a, you see a lot of lads as well that probably aren't as physically or genetically gifted, that are still world class players'cause of how they apply themselves and 'cause of their mindset. there's a, fine line, obviously you can't not have any physical attributes, but I think you can definitely become a world class player. on 70% mindset sort of element of it, would you say, which of your mates would you, which of your mates would you say have the strongest mindset? Strong Fraser Dingwall's got a very strong mindset. Yeah, he'd be one that I would, put up there. Fin Smith would be another one. Yeah. I think, and I think also you look at those two, and I think especially Dingers, and I think Dingers has said it and will say it, that he probably, he's actually a lot stronger than he was, but he probably wasn't as physically, genetically gifted as some of the players. But his ability to read the game and his mindset and his mentality, what made him an unbelievable player and what made him one of the, one of the best centres in the world, I think that's a blueprint of what I'm talking about. And then you get the other side of it is probably not going to know any their names because they are physically gifted freak athletes, but they never do make it or never do quite get to that level because,'cause they haven't got the mindset. Yeah. A hundred percent agree with that. I love how Fraser Dingwall plays. I love that. His delaying the pass, that's probably a key element why Northampton did so well this season. Oh yeah. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. He's our, rock in the middle of it that keeps everything going, I think. And Tom Litchfield was really good as well. Especially in the semi-finals. Yeah, exactly. I think that Litchy this year has been unbelievable and I think that's really helped. Our centres Dingers and Hutch, it is helped both of them. It's pushed them on obviously'cause there's been competition and also it's allowed us not to burn out centres as well. Like they do rotate now and it allows 'em to all be fresh and allows 'em all to feel good and allow their body to feel good and allows 'em to keep going and not picking up little injuries and stuff. Yeah.'cause tommy Freeman, he's playing a bit of centre. He is playing the Saturday Centre. Yeah, sure that. Yeah, exactly. I think he probably, I think he may have played centre a bit more for us this year had Litchy not been so in-form and flying I think. I think that might have been a bit of a… this is me just guessing now. It might have been a bit of a plan, but Yeah, obviously you see he, Freemo is one of those players you could put pretty much anywhere including 10 in his eyes, so don't get him started on that. But yeah, he's one of those players you can put anywhere on the pitch and he'll be pretty much world class Do you reckon, if you gave, had the chance to play centre do you reckon you'd take it?. you'd never turn it down, would you? I'd definitely say yes. you'd say yes to playing regardless. but yeah, I used to play centre at school. I played Centre for Saints when, remember when you won't remember A-League was a thing. So we used to play A-League games on a Monday night, which was like the old, I dunno what it, there is nothing to replicate it anymore because they squad size are a bit smaller so you can't play the games. It's basically like a young lads and lads coming back from injuries game. And I play, I played centre up at Newcastle and in a league game on a Monday night. So I have played a professional game at Centre, I'll class it as. That's so cool. Yeah. I see a lot of academy players now, especially in Saints Academy, loads of their centres because they want really good handling skills. They often get pushed out to wings most of the time. Yeah. you see a lot of centres, academy centres getting moved out onto the wing and stuff like that. I think it. I don't really know why. I think it's probably that they, their skills are very good, but. We've also got centres whose skills are very good, and if they're quick, then you've got a quick person with really good hands and really good skills. Then why not put 'em on the wing as well sort of thing. Why not exactly. Just have a bunch of fast centres playing the whole back line. It'll be class. I'd lose my job, but yeah. What does your prep preparation look like on a match day, and how long did it take to find out what works for you? I try not to have too many, like superstitions. I know a lot of lads do, but I try not to. I, don't really know why I don't. I think maybe it's an element of if I wasn't, if I wasn't allowed to do it or I couldn't do it for some reason, how would it affect me? So I've never really had any superstitions. I try to stay pretty relaxed for as long as I can. I think I am one of those people that can play the game before it's been played in my head and get myself a bit built up and worked up about it. so yeah, my, my sort of philosophy is keep calm, try and take my mind off rugby, do other things until I need to really start thinking about rugby. But that doesn't really start for me until I come into the club or I get on the bus to the game. just because I feel like that's gives me ample time to, to get myself ready and also. I'm a better player when I'm not fired up. I'm a better player when I'm pretty calm and I'm really controlled about how I do things instead of being too fired up and too aggressive and stuff like that. I think there's a fine line, so I'm in between that, When we interviewed Tommy Freeman, and he often said before the game he would start dancing in the changing rooms. Yeah, he does. Yeah, he does do that. And like Pollock, he tries to get fired up. Like he said, he plays his best when he gets fired up. Yeah, that's exactly, there's a lot of people that their minds work very differently and a need, and need different things. So like you say, Pollock needs to be fired up for him to play well. Other lads need the opposite. Other lads have a medium ground where they need to be a little bit fired up, but can't be too fired up. And it's Freemo, he's a little bit different. We just leave him in a different category.'cause I don't think I've ever, he just, he's just Freemo, He would just danced the whole time. So Yeah. Bit of Olivia Dean. Yeah, exactly. It's an interesting changing room to say the least. You got some lad's with a headphones on rapping Freemo dancing to Olivia Dean in the middle and Pollock just being Pollock, getting himself fired up. Yeah, it's a, it's an odd place to be sometimes you got to ignore it and just try and focus on yourself a little bit. Yeah. I have a bit of superstitions. I always have to have my laces and a double knot. That's probably sensible to be fair. Yeah. I saves your laces coming undone. Yeah. It reminds for some reason when I have it not on double, it just reminds me of a clown. Dunno why. Yeah, I know what you mean. Big old long laces sticking out everywhere. You'll end up falling over 'em. Yeah. It's probably, you can even argue that's not a superstition, that's just you being a bit smart and switched on and not wanting to fall over. Exactly. it's not a superstition. However, I am sick for every game. So when I come back in the changing room, after the warmup, I'm religiously sick in the bin, in the middle of the room. Yeah, it's like every game you'll play. yeah. I don't, I, I think it started off as nerves and now it's just become like an involuntary action that I have to do. And it's weird 'cause some of the lads love it and they're like, oh, it gets them like bit fired up and some of the lads, it's that's minging. It stinks. Can you please stop it? So there's the two camps on me being sick before the game. So you have to ask some of the lads if you see 'em, what they think about it. What is the, does a typical training week look like and what do you put in beyond the team sessions? a typical training week would be you're looking at Monday, we'll go if you've played. So it may, we'll keep it pretty similar if you played, you come in Monday, you do some skills, some recovery bits, some reviews, meetings, stuff like that. Then Tuesday would be our sort of big day. So big, our big bigger gym session, our, big rugby session with meetings. we'd be off Wednesday, Thursday would be a, not a big session, but our other main rugby session. But it'd be quick. So it'd be short and sharp, like really fast stuff with a sort of a power gym and speed at the start of rugby. And Friday is just touches. So like some skills stuff like really low level, with footballs, tennis balls, stuff like that. And then obviously playing on a Saturday. outside of that, I think a lot of the stuff that I do is recovery based and getting my body into a state where I can train the next day and I can train well the next day. I think I've struggled with injuries and soft tissue injuries quite a bit. I think one of my main things is trying to keep fit and I think the recovery and the active recovery element of that is, is really key for me to keep performing and keep playing and keep training with like your nerves for a game. I'd say the week in advance. Would you say you like to not think about the game as much or would you say you want to think about the game much as, as much as possible? I think when I'm at work and reviewing stuff, I'll think about it and I think that's, when I give myself time to, to think about it and, review stuff and reflect on stuff and that sort of element of it. But When I'm home, I've got to be dad, I've got to be a husband. I've got to do everything else that's, not rugby related. And I think that's really nice for me 'cause it allows me to get away from rugby. It allows me to switch off. I think I struggled with that when I was younger that it would've been, I wouldn't have done that. I'd have stayed at home thinking about it and 'cause I had nothing to distract me sort of thing. And I think that was probably quite detrimental to one, probably my. Performance to an extent, but also my, enjoyment of it. I think if you're constantly thinking about it, you struggle to enjoy it a little bit. I guess it's if you, it sounds stupid, but if you eat chocolate constantly, you probably will enjoy it. But if you have it like once a week, you'd enjoy it. It is like if it's constant with you, end up falling out of love with it a little bit. Yeah, I agree with that. I remember I had too much Wispa's, so I just fell out with them. Now I need to eat them. Yeah, there you go. Sometimes. And you do rugby, rugby, rugby. Yeah. People get look like having very sport, like they say, you've got to be, come back like you've got You can be dedicated and it's got to be. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. it's good not to have rugby, rugby, rugby. Yeah. A hundred percent. I think a lot of people will burn out, if they are rugby, rugby, and they you see a lot of people fall out of love with it and that's probably an element of it a hundred percent. How do you stay grounded when things are going well and the attention increases? I think for me, like I've, I was once told make sure your highs aren't too high and your lows aren't too low. stay pretty level, like whether you've won, you can be a bit like this, but don't be doing this because that's never going to be good for you and like your mental state. And that is, is really difficult to control. I think if you can keep yourself at a level, I think if you can keep pretty internal with it within your, within yourself and nothing really changes as to if you're playing badly, if you're playing well, what do you need to do to be the best regardless of whether you're playing bad or good, that's normally the same thing. Like you at your best, what does that look like? And that's what you got to tell yourself. And think going into games and stuff like that is what, do I need to do to be the best version of myself? I think also having a child that tries to wrestle you and stuff like that also is an element of keeping you grounded or refuses to go to sleep or screams at you also keeps you grounded no matter how well playing. Yeah. I heard a quote similar to what you said, it's like after a game if you celebrate really high after you've played well, then when you play really badly it ruins your day. Yeah. So you can, if you at the exact same, it doesn't really change the mood of your day really. Exactly. Yeah. And I think you do have to celebrate and there's nothing wrong with that, but I think it's more the emotional side of it. Like where are you emotionally? How high is your mood emotionally as opposed to what your actions actually are. Like you can go out and enjoy your time and have some fun with your mates and also just you can go out and celebrate without it having to you all about the rugby and go out and just have fun with your mates and spend some time with everyone. Like it doesn't have to, but you can do that after you lose, you can still go out and have fun with your mates and stuff like that. it's that consistency of what you do, I think is a real key. Yeah. After the, I remember seeing couple of the Exeter Chiefs people that they were having like beers and just chatting, so Yeah, exactly. I think, exactly. They've, done phenomenal to get, regardless of what happens in your season, if you've got to prem final, you must have done pretty well, at some stage or throughout the season. So you've got to celebrate that as well as, losing in a final is worse than losing in a semifinal.'cause you, if you're losing a semifinal and the team you lose to goes on a wins that you're like, oh, fair play. But if you losing a semifinal and you think you should have won as a team, you beat loses. And it's a bit like, yeah, when it all comes down to one game, like you say, you see the stuff that premier rugby post, there's always two sides of it. there's us cheering, celebrating, and then you see the Exeter Lads on their knees, hands and knees crying, like really emotional about it. And then you think, oh, that, that could have been us. Do you know what I mean? there's always two sides to that. And being able to say, I think prem finals are a bit different on the being like this a bit, you probably can for a prem, if you've won the premiership, you can probably go a little bit mental and that's fine. But like day to day, week to week in the prem, then you've got to be pretty level. Nothing's won till the end. What would you do to celebrate. I think we just, a lot of the lads like spending time together, just, going out with each other, and stuff like that. I think we're a very tight knit group and I think whatever we do as a group, everyone enjoys and and gets behind. kind do you, would you ever go to a, restaurant and get your, go-to meal, like a cheat meal after you win? Oh, what would be, what my cheat meal is? After a win if we've won and played well, I love, there's a five guys right in Northampton. Five guys is very, good after a game. That'd be, that'd have to be up there. that'd probably be it. If not a Waggas, which is quite boring actually. I understand. that'd probably be the two. That would be my go-tos. If I win a final, I'll make sure to go to one of those. Yeah, give it. Yeah. Probably go five Guys. Waggas is a little bit boring. After you want a Final Five guys a bit more interesting, if you could go back and give your 16-year-old self one piece of advice, what would it be? to enjoy it. I think that's the, that's a really big thing for me is I probably, there've been moments in the last few years. I probably haven't enjoyed playing as much as I should have and I'm back to a point now where I really am enjoying it. But I think with injuries and stuff like that, I think you've always got to remember how lucky you are and you've really got to enjoy every moment of it. Even the lows just enjoy them because you dunno when your next one's going to be and you dunno if you're going to have another one. And you dunno how long you've got playing this game. You don't know any, you don't, you dunno what's happening tomorrow. Like you've got to take every day as it comes and enjoy it as much as you can. Yeah. A quote I really like that kind of sums that up that I think about for a game is play every game like it's your last Yeah. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. think the sad reality is you, never know when it is. Like you see lads that have had to retire from rugby at quite young. people just retiring because they've had enough of it. it's, you never really know when your last game is going to be so like it's a hundred percent what you said. you have to play every game like it's your last. Yeah. Like Anthony Watson, he retired very young. Yeah, exactly. That. It's, you look at those people and there's a lot of people that probably didn't know they played their last game, but they've played their, played a game, got injured and never really got back and then had to retire and they, might not have realised that their last game was their last game. Obviously the fairytale is to announce your retirement at 36 and play your last game and get a farewell, but that's, not really how it works for everyone. Yeah. How do you handle making mistakes in big games? Do you have a process of resetting quickly? yeah, I just try to think of that sort of next job, like what's the next thing I can do? And a big thing for me is not chasing the mistake. I think I've, been guilty before of chasing, trying to right my wrong sort of thing. And I think that's when you can get into an element of trying to do too much or going off script and costing the team even more. So I think it's very much stick to the game plan stick to the script, but keep trying to be the best you can be and go and make your next action positive sort of side of it as opposed to, oh, I've messed that up. Let me go and try and solve it and run around the pitch like a headless chicken. Then you end up giving another two penalties away and then you, the other team score and then you, feel like a real idiot. Yeah. As Ted lasso said, memory like a goldfish. Exactly. That a hundred percent. You've just got to, you got to leave it and then you can review it on the Sunday and the Monday you'll, come back to review it and see where you went wrong and stuff like that. And yeah, there's no point in trying to review it or dwell on it in the game. There's nothing, good's going to come of that at that point. What role has the Saints environment played in your growth and what should young players look for in a club? I think Saints are very good at giving you confidence and also develop, developing you as a player and, really putting effort and time into young players. I think they put the effort, the time in to make these young players what they are and then give them the confidence to say, go and play. Go and do you go and do what you're good at. don't worry about making mistakes, just back yourself sort of thing. And I think that's one thing that they are amazing at compared to other clubs where you see that's probably not the ethos and there's probably lads worrying about making mistakes and trying to stick to, almost trying to play like players before them as opposed to trying to play like themselves. I think that's a big one like that you probably look a few years ago and people would try and replicate the person they're replacing as opposed to just actually no, I'm who I am. I'm going to go out there and play my game. As opposed to their game a hundred percent. I see a lot of rugby players like saying the way they make themselves better is playing at a high standard and it's what separates, like for example, Freddie Steward, he gets chosen like maybe against South Africa, they kick a lot 'cause he's really good under the high ball. Yeah. And that's like his game, that's his specialty. Yeah. A hundred percent. I think. I think that's one thing you've got to, you've always got to, everyone has something they're really good at and I think it's just trying to get that on the pitch as much as you can. Getting what do what you are good at as much as you possibly can.'cause that's what gets you picked. What would you say your specialty is? Finishing tries off? I, would guess like I would say it would be beating people and finishing tries. Yeah. being able to get over the line in sticky situations and stuff like that. Do you reckon you have any new celebrations in the next season? probably not. Mine won't be as extravagant as everyone else's, I don't think. I don't normally celebrate at all, so maybe I'll have to, I'll have to come up with something, but I dunno what yet. The only time I ever celebrated was, properly was when, my daughter Lara was born, everyone did this, like the little baby cradle. That was the only one I've ever committed to doing. I haven't really ever had a, celebration. Yeah. Because he has to come up with one for me.'cause I ain't got a, there's a few other lads have some Yeah. Strange ones. Yeah. Tommy Freeman has the wheelbarrow. He said he really likes that one. Yeah. What was the one that Finn did? yeah, Scuba Yeah, that one. Dunno what that, I still dunno what that is. I'm too old. And Pollock has the basketball throw, the pulse. Yeah. He's got a, I think he's got more than he can count on two hands the celebrations he's got lined up to do fair play to him. He's inventive and imaginative, that's for sure. Yeah. No, I got told he found one of the, a United player he found a celebration of the United. Yeah. Doesn't surprise me. Yeah, he's a funny old character. Henry Love him to bits, but he is absolutely mental. What's one piece of advice you'd give to any aspiring winger? Probably the same I'd give to when you asked me about myself, just to enjoy it. enjoy what you're doing. and if you don't then that's probably time when you've either got to find a way to love it again or move on. I think, technically if you're asking like a, technical point for a young winger, I think the way the game's going nowadays, you'd probably say work on your aerial skills. Work on being able to catch the ball under pressure, catch the ball above your head, go and win the ball back. I think that's going to come into the game a lot more. it already has, but that's going to become a real point of difference for, wingers and I think every winger's going to need to be able to do it. Yeah, when me interviewed Ollie Hassell-Collins, he was talking about his, there's so much more to it than actually people think, like really good work on it. Yeah, a hundred percent. It's not, as easy as jumping in the air with your hands above your head and trying to catch the ball. It takes a, lot of skill and also you've got to remember that there's two people, if not three people trying to do exactly the same thing and get the ball. it's never going to be pretty to say, but it is definitely going to be part of the game in the future. A hundred percent. Final question, Ollie, what are you most proud of in your rugby career to date? I would say when, so the, when we won the prem so that the month that we won the prem would be my period I, we obviously I won the prem, I won prem top try scorer that year. I also then two weeks later made my England debut and got picked for my first England tour. So I think that period of also a little bit before that, but I also had my daughter was born sort of four weeks before that as well. So yeah, I think that whole sort of two month period was really special and probably my proudest rugby memory as a whole. Definitely. That sounds like a dream month. Yeah, it was. It was pretty mental. I didn't have much sleep the whole time, which was class, but we worked around it. But yeah, it was a special period. I think it's, it is a bit weird 'cause obviously winning the Prem England debut, all that sort of stuff. I think when you ask me when I retire, that will probably still be my proudest moment. Hopefully not, hopefully I'll go and do something else and we'll, work it out. But that, I think that'll be very hard to beat exactly. But I just can't thank you enough for taking the time to be on our podcast. Ollie, thank you so much. No worries at all buddy. Absolute pleasure.