Rugby Legends with Arthur Dickins

Ollie Hassell-Collins: The Winger Every Coach Wants

• Paul Banks • Season 1 • Episode 24

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In this episode of Rugby Legends, Arthur Dickins sits down with England international and Leicester Tigers winger Ollie Hassell-Collins to uncover the skills, mindset and work ethic that have taken him from grassroots rugby to the very top of the professional game. 

Ollie shares the journey from playing at Newbury RFC with his dad as coach, through the England pathway and London Irish, to representing England and becoming one of the Gallagher Premiership's most dangerous wingers. Along the way, he reveals the technical details that separate good wingers from great ones, from catch-pass and footwork to dominating the aerial battle and becoming a complete defender.

The conversation also explores handling setbacks, surviving the collapse of London Irish, asking better questions, analysing your game, recovery habits, and why every young player should embrace failure rather than fear it. Ollie also explains the story behind his famous painted fingernails, the recovery routine he swears by, and the coaches and teammates who helped shape his career.

Whether you're a winger looking to improve your game, a coach developing young players, or simply a rugby fan, this episode is packed with practical advice, honest stories and lessons that apply far beyond the rugby pitch.

In this episode:

  •  The most important skill every young winger should master 
  •  Why modern wingers need much more than pace 
  •  Becoming dominant under the high ball 
  •  Defensive habits that separate professionals 
  •  The truth about positioning and work rate 
  •  Recovering from rejection and setbacks 
  •  The collapse of London Irish 
  •  Why analysing rugby accelerated his development 
  •  Recovery routines that actually work 
  •  The proudest moment of his England career

Hi everyone. I'm Arthur Dickins and this is my Rugby Legends podcast. In each episode, I interview an amazing rugby player or coach to get their insight and advice for young rugby players just like me, who are keen to learn it better. In this episode, I'm speaking with Ollie Hassell-Collins, one of the most electrifying wingers in the Gallagher Prem. Ollie is an England International who joined Leicester Tigers in 2023 after making over 100 appearances for London Irish, where he had became a firm fan favourite. Ollie came through the England Pathway system combining full-time education with playing for the England u18s and u20s. He made his debut in the 2023 6 Nations against Scotland and is now one of the most physically imposing wingers in the game. I hope find Ollie's knowledge and wisdom as helpful as I did, enjoy. firstly, I just wanna say thanks so much for taking time to be on my podcast. I really appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely welcome. I'm very excited for this chat and you've got an exceptional shirt on, so I can't complain. You started at Newbury RFC with your dad as the coach. What were the key moments that shaped the player you became? I think I was very lucky that he was my coach. he helped me a lot, obviously, I'm sure as your dad does, he travels around with you all around the country, taking to tournaments, standing in the wet rain, the cold, supporting you. so I was very lucky that he was able to do that with me and help me get better and grow as a player. but I think when you're at that age, you just love playing rugby, don't you love it with your mates? You go on great tours. that was one of the big things I used to love at that age. we went on a tour to Brazil as like a goodbye tour, and it was one of the most incredible things I've ever done. obviously we went to Wales and Ireland and places like this. so doing that with mates, spending time playing against different teams. and then I think as you get a bit older, you play in the county leagues and we had some good rivalries with Maidenhead, like a couple Reading clubs. so it prepares you for the, bigger games. but again, it's like I say, it's, just great fun play with your mates. And I've got my dad there to support me and help me get better and he was always there whenever I needed anything or whenever I wanted to go up to the club to practice something, he was always up there with me. so yeah, I was very lucky growing up. It's so cool you went on all those tours. Yeah, no, yeah, it was amazing. Brazil was, it was different gravy. we went to the favelas, had a tour around the favelas. we played a couple Brazilian teams, went down to Sao Paulo, played a team. spent a bit of time in Brazil on the, played beach rugby against some of the Brazilians. yeah, no, that was amazing. Nothing will ever beat that, I don't think. So was Brazil your favourite tour? Without a doubt. Without a doubt. For a young winger, at grassroots level, what's one fundamental they should prioritise above everything else? sounds a bit easy, but I think catch pass is so important. wingers are, there's a lot more work for wingers to do now. So to have that basic skill of catch passing is, is huge. It's a little bit boring. but being able to, when you get connected with those guys and then you're able to put other people away where people are not expecting, 'cause you're a winger, you're, not skilful or whatever. being able to put those players away, can really be the difference. and then obviously footwork. I love practising my footwork. it's so fun to practice. I have one-on-one battles, try and break some ankles. so that's always good fun. and then I suppose as you get older, the high ball stuff becomes quite a big deal, especially with the new rules of no escorting. you have to get really comfortable and confident doing that. When you say about stepping, do you have anybody look up to you and be like, I wish I could do that step. Oh, that's gotta be Cheslin Kolbe. I think he's without doubt my favourite. I think he's the best wing in the world. I'm obviously a very different player to  Cheslin Kolbe. he's a, little bit smaller and his footwork's different to different people. he can step people in a phone box. my footwork looks a little bit different to his, you not, it might be one step and then try and power through or go on the outside. but yeah,  Cheslin Kolbe is just, I could watch his highlights on YouTube all day. Just silly Good. Yeah, he is such a good player. I remember, I think he kicks as well, doesn't he? goals.. Yeah, he could do everything. He played, I think he was at Toulouse. He had a game at Fly Half as well, or, yeah, he was, yeah, he was a pretty good rugby player. Who's your favourite? my favourite rugby player? That's quite hard. I really like Fin Smith. I like the way he plays such a cool guy and his game management. I just really like it. are you fly half? Oh yeah. I'm fly half, so Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah, no, you are definitely up there. Thank you. You are a physically big winger. Was this always the case as you played through the age groups? Yeah. Yeah, so I was always one of the bigger guys. I when I was real young, I was in the forwards 'cause I was taller. just getting in there. But then I decided that it wasn't for me. and then I, slowly got quicker and then moved out to the backs. but then as I was kinda like 14 to 16, I was, played a couple games at back row, like number 8. but yeah, I spent most of my time in the backs and definitely felt a bit more comfortable in there, in the wing fallback position. 13 position. I was, yeah, I was definitely, that was my calling. Definitely. playing any of those positions? I enjoy 13. 13's good fun. but like I say, similar to wingers have a lot more job to do. So 13 and wing can you're doing similar things defensively. It's obviously very different. number 8 would be good fun. I wouldn't mind having to go out there again, but the forwards these days were a bit bigger than they were when I was playing number 8 back in age groups, I dunno. We'll see. We'll see. Yeah, no, if I got bigger,'cause I'm quite a small person in the game, I, number 8 is such a cool position. Yeah. Just so much involvement isn't there? There's a lot, there's a lot of work to do. You get through and, you get a lot of ball as well, which is the exciting bit. A hundred percent. You're like a back and a forward, almost. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. What skill do you have to work the hardest on as you developed your game? when I was growing up, it was obviously my left hand. You always have one hand stronger than your other, don't you? So my right hand was very strong. I was very comfortable in that. but my left hand wasn't great. so I'd spend a lot of time on that. and probably like I said earlier, the high ball stuff as you go through age group, it's not really something that's a focus. so being able to, do that and get comfortable, like I said, and confident doing that, took a bit of time. And then as you've seen, like I said, the rule changes and seen this year, something we've focused on is being able to catch it above head. so it's easy catching like this when you've got the escorts, you've got this nice cradle where the ball's going into, but above head's a lot harder skill. There's a lot more that can go wrong. so that was something this year that we've worked really hard on and we've gotten pretty good at it and we're pretty confident doing that, which is good. It takes out that 50/50, a lot of people are coming to slap it with the no escorts or just try and make a mess of it. So being able to do that and get above their hands, is a huge skill to have. What kind of age did that high ball stuff come about?'cause there are now, like ours is U14s, which mad Yeah. Do you, you can kick, can't you? yeah. Yeah. But you don't really do the, highball stuff isn't really a thing. No, it's kinda like U14s a bit then. Yeah, the rest. Yeah. the main thing is just when you play adult, like I say, it, was, the skills changed because the escorts have gone. with the escorts it was, more of a 90% you're gonna catch it. Whereas now it's like a complete 50/50. So the skill, you have to obviously develop the skill of catching it here, but now the skill's changed to being able to catch here and above here. But like I said, when you get, get professional that, that stuff, you have coaches around you that amazing coaches around you that will help you there. I remember seeing, I think it was, I think Saracens were definitely playing. I remember Noah Caluori jumped in the air, he just always got the balls. Yeah. Yeah, he is cool. he's very good at jumping. Yeah. Was it, would it be quite hard to face against him in the high ball? there was one, I think they had a free kick, and me and him went up for one, and that was a good, one-on-one battle. but yeah, no, you have to, prepare for, everything though. He's, there's a lot of teams. Sale are very good at it. Sale are good. They go to their kicking game a lot. They're very comfortable with it. we think we are good at it. so yeah, there's a lot of teams that are very good at it and very comfortable playing that kicking game. As you said about, it's like a 50/50, who wins it? Would you say? would, height make a difference, for example, so if you're facing Noah Caluori, would it be like a 60/40? it definitely does make a bit of a difference. Of course, tall are, is obviously gonna help you. but I think as well there's a lot of, there's a lot more that goes into it with how you generate momentum to get into the air, how you use your body to, put them off, create a bit of separation between you and the player. so that's quite a big thing that we try and focus on is how we can run onto the ball, get as much momentum as possible, create, be physical in the air, and then create that separation, which will make the catch easier. If you're going up standing still, they're running onto it. it's gonna be very hard to win that back. So yeah, just how you're able to time it, so it's at the top of the, at your top of your jump, you're taking it and then creating that separation to make the catch a bit easier. That's very interesting. I didn't realise he did like loads more work. I thought. I thought he didn't much work on that as club. No. Yeah, there's, a lot, there's a lot of, thinking that goes into it. You've obviously seen as well people, a lot of teams now are, they'll drop someone back, so they have the 15, then someone, the winger will be here, and as the box kicks going up, this winger will take it and run with the opposite winger. So it's like a shoulder to shoulder rather than this guy taking it. So this wing will either go up, catch it, or he'll go up and try to slap it back to the 15. so yeah, there's a lot that there's a lot that goes into the high ball stuff at the moment. Which one would you prefer? Slapping it back or catching it? I prefer catching it. Definitely the feeling that you get of catching it above head, and coming down with it, knowing that it's like one of the most perfect catches you've ever done. is it is a great feeling. honestly, it's so good. I love it. Gains a lot of aura as well. Yeah, definitely. How would you decide between staying out wide and coming in search of the ball? again, there's a lot that goes into this, so there's a lot of time. So if the ball's going away from you you can maybe anticipate a line break and maybe chase through the middle. So obviously I've assume you've seen Chris Ashton, his tries. He was very good at anticipating the game and where the ball's gonna end up. so that's one way. obviously you don't wanna waste energy and try and get on the other side of the pitch because that's not helping anyone, so you have to time it. It's, a lot of it's about timing. so there's that, there's obviously, so if the ball's coming towards you and let's say the 13 carries and then the 15 and forward or 12 might be in that ruck, and then as a winger you notice that and then you can go and help out on the other side. And then these guys in this ruck will drop back and look after your wing almost. So you can go and get, connected to the 10 or the other back or organise something on this side of the pitch. And then the gear, the guys that are getting up can help organise something on this side of the pitch. so there's a lot, of it's just about timing and when's, best go's difficult. It's just noticing because you don't wanna leave your wing empty, you need someone on the edge. so it's about making sure that as you go, you talk to someone saying you stay. I'm going, you look after this and I'll be back whenever I get back. so that's the main thing. And then obviously as we get closer to the try line, you want to keep, unless it's a set play, wingers will tend to stay on the edge to hold the width. as you see a lot of time in rugby that over the top ball to the winger is usually on in the 22. So you always need someone out there. but yeah, it's just about, it's just about noticing who's in the breakdown and what's going on in the game. Does that make sense? Yeah. No, it does really. Yeah, There's a lot there. yeah, I see a lot of, premiership teams this weekend, last weekend. they did a lot of that. I, remember when leicester, when you guys got to the Premiership final, I think it was in the semi-final against sale. I remember Pollard did this kick to Radwan. He dived for it. That was a really good try. exactly. Yeah. If you got a forward out there, they're not gonna do that. So yeah, that was I think that's one of the best tries I've ever seen live. That was just silly. Defence is something wingers can neglect. How important has your defensive game been to your career? Yeah, defence is massive. a lot about, as a winger defence, a lot of it, What happens on the inside will help you a lot as a winger. So if you're not getting width from the inside, as a winger, you're very exposed. And like I said, if you've got people coming around the corner getting connected, it's a very hard job for you. So I love defence defences. It's so important to games. You've seen a lot this year. There's been some high scoring games, hasn't there? we've really tried to focus on our defence. I used to hate tackling. I used to absolutely hate It it was horrible. But, and then I decided, and I figured out it could be a bit of a, bit of a weapon if I could really work on it, because of, my size, I was one of the bigger wingers. and so I went away. I worked on it and then just fell in love with defence. but there's so many different defensive systems. a lot of people at the moment are very aggressive, defensives. some people will be a bit more connected and sit off and try and get you to a touch line. Some will try and shut you down. And like South Africa, they're very aggressive. They've got a very aggressive, they, I'd be a little bit nervous, but they obviously, know each other very well and they know the system very well. but yeah, there's so many defences. So as a winger, it's just about adapting to those defences. but yeah, defence is huge. And then as a winger, you, the talk is so important. talking to the 13 or whoever's on your inside, if your number's up, you can know you can be a bit more aggressive if your numbers don't need to tell them they need to get to you and you can be a little bit more connected. so I'm constantly talking to the people on the inside. I know 15, I'm always talking to 15 about the backfield, whether he's gonna come and help me on the end of line or if it's on the other side, I'm dropping off, covering that space for him. so yeah, I can, again, defence, there's a lot that goes into defence, but I think the most important thing is, is the chat constantly talking to, and it's important for tens as well. You never know. You might find yourself in the backfield. you see a lot of that at the moment. so how you guys are talking to, wingers and your centres always chatting about where you are, how who you're covering, who you've got, is very important. Yeah. sounds like there's a lot that goes into everything. Yeah. Yeah, I was trying to make it, I don't wanna go too deep. Yeah. No, South Africa. Very tactical. I remember watching, I think it was the World, it was the World Cup. Yeah. A couple years back. And I remember they had, it was one of their back row against a winger.'cause they plant a little crossroad kick. And then that's when you have to really good at the defence. Yeah. No, South Africa or, yeah, they're very good defence. Like you said. Like I said, they're very aggressive. They just can't, they just try and shut you down and catch you behind the gain line, so it must be very hard to play against. Yeah, I can't imagine that. And they're obviously very physical as well. Yeah, I can't, Fiji are. Very physical aren't they, as well? Yeah, they're, they are specimens. The, the size of their legs. All the islanders, the Tongans and Samoans. yeah, beasts. And it's mad. I can't imagine tackling that.'cause I remember seeing a TikTok, it was of Tuisova. And honestly, his thigh looked absolute huge. I can't Huge. I was never opposite him, but I was opposite, do you remember someone called Naiyaravoro what's the, there was a Saint's wing. It was a, he was a big guy. I forgot his name. and obviously NAdolo at Leicester as well. I was never, thankfully, I was never opposite then. but yeah, they were big boys. I know there's two Fijians at Bristol Bears and one of them plays on the Wing. How would you handle like tackling him? Difficult. You can't just gotta fly into them. obviously you've gotta read the body language and how, it depends how much time they've got and how much time you've got. obviously if they've got a bit of time, you try and maybe wait, let them see what they do and then you can go and attack 'em. if you can go get man and ball, then you go, get aggressive with them. Definitely. And then when we interviewed Leon Lloyd, he said with Jonah Lomu, he just dived at his legs and hoped for the best. yeah. You just gotta fly into them as, most tackling, you just, fly in and usually the outcome will be good. And it's often quite satisfying as well when you like dive at their legs and they fall over. Yeah. What techniques, skills do you think are most underrated in back play? I think catch pass, like I said earlier, probably gets looked over because it's just a given, isn't it? I, you play rugby, you can catch pass. but the importance of that is, is massive. a try the, if it pass checks, you could be the difference between scoring or not. so that is a, that's obviously a, huge skill and a given. Think probably spoke about there, one-on-one defence. if it was one-on-one, you, might, it might lead to a line break. which, you don't wanna happen. so that, that's pretty big. Oh, I dunno, maybe the attacking kicks, like the grubbers or the little chips. that could be, a real weapon. you can score some nice tries off, chips, off grubbers, off 10 coming round, putting it over the top for the winger or the centres. a lot of skills. yeah, I'd say those three, probably underrated, I think they're people expect you to be good at them or you don't work on them because you're a professional and it's a given. But actually there's a lot of time and extras, that we do on all of that stuff. we spend a lot of time on our, how fast we can get the ball in and out of our hands. We spend a lot of time, as I said earlier, we do our footwork one-on-one attack. You work on your defence as well. and then a lot of time on, on your grubbers, regathering, your little chips, trying to get that bounce back, into your hands. yeah, I'd probably say those three. Okay. Yeah, no, I remember, I think, it was on YouTube. I remember Henry Pollock saying he can't, you gotta, when he chips over, you gotta try to read the ball where it's bouncing. So yeah, I noticed it's always very satisfying and it bounces back at and you score it is very satisfying. Yeah, that's a good point. You can't, you can read as the ball's in the air, you can see how it's moving and then you can try and anticipate, you can slow your foot sweep down, maybe be like, oh, let's go it this way. So I'm gonna, the defender's flying across, so you know, actually it's gonna end up here. yeah. So there's, yeah. You're trying to watch the ball move and see where it's gonna bounce. You were at London Irish when the club went into administration. Can you tell us about that experience? it was tough. It was very tough. friends had to retire, because there wasn't much out, there for them. Obviously you had wasps in the same year and then Worcester, so there was a lot of free players. so there wasn't much space for some of these guys, they had to retire. or if you found something, it was probably on the other side of the world. So we had a couple of ours out in Japan, down in South Africa, over to France. a couple of the coaches moved out to Australia. so yeah, no, it was tough. And we were, really pushing that year. We were, I think we came fifth that year, so we were, you could see the rise that we were on and the quality we had in the squad. I'd at that club I was, 16. I loved the club and owe a lot of my career to that club. so when it did happen, it was really tough. but I think the main thing is I think wasps and, Worcester when they were obviously didn't exist. Now they do. I think they, we all still had a group chat, so there's still like a London Irish group chat where if you go to Back to Australia and you come across all of them, you put a picture in the chat or there's still a lot of, a lot that gets posted in there. if people get married or something, there'll always be a congratulations message and all of this stuff. So everyone's still very connected through the group chat. And, I get very excited to play teams. like gloucester, there's a lot of London Irish people there. a lot of my mates at Bath and know Henry saw Henry Arundell the weekend good mates with him. so yeah, it's exciting playing against them. Of course. It's good fun. It's always, it's nice to get one up on them. it was, a tough time. Definitely. Yeah, no, I'm still's so sad, especially how much work and dedication it takes to be a professional rugby player and that all can just be lost in a matter of days. Exactly. Yeah. There's only, there's only a few lucky ones that, carried on. and coaches, we had a lot of great, coaches there. there was a really good coaching group. yeah, no, it was, it was a tough time. Definitely. You paint your fingernails. Can you tell us about that? I can, my most asked question, I do it. I started because I bit 'em, and it wasn't a nice habit. I didn't enjoy having that habit. I, yeah, I used to get really short and it was, it didn't feel nice, so I obviously tried the stuff that doesn't taste nice. I didn't get on with that, obviously. it did its job, it did not taste nice, but it was get, when I was having sandwiches and stuff, it was like getting my food and yeah, it wasn't, the one. So then, my girlfriend did her own nails and so she was like, I've got this clear one. Do you wanna try that? I was like, yeah, I might, as well, might stop me. so I did that and it, did work. And then, just went from there. We started with, my pinky was white, so we started just plain white pinky. just to see what it was like, I liked it or not. And then I think we went pinky and thumb, then we went pinky thumb, middle finger. This was just plain white, so it wasn't too loud. and then we just went for it, all fingers, plain, white. and then the more I did it, I just got, colourful with it. Got, some different designs up. at the time I was doing it every week so I could change the colours to what was going on that week. So one week I was making my hundredth appearance for Irish. So I had, the number, obviously 100. I had a 1 0 0 on my nails, which is cool. but now it's a little bit different. I can't, I get 'em done. She doesn't have the patience for me to do them. I'm a bit picky now a lot. I know what I like, so I go to someone to get it done. and yeah, I just en just enjoy doing it, just coming up with different designs, just having some fun with it. and it's just a way of expressing myself in my own way. yeah, no, I do enjoy it. It's good for, I've got a good, I've got a good set on at the moment. Nice and colourful. A bit random. That's so cool. Do you have any like favourites or go-to designs? Ooh, for summer, I like my, I like a pastel colour. Pastel, like a matt pastel looks very good in summer. favourite designs? the hundred one for Irish was pretty cool. I did one, when I first came to Leicester, I did, Leicester colours, which was cool. I've got a whole folder of inspiration for nail art, so I go through that and then I'll pick, a few different things out and then send it to my art, my nail art lady. And, she does one for me. Very lucky. She's very good at them. That is so cool. Every young player faces setbacks. What's your advice for getting through those moments? So the main, the first setback I kind of encountered in rugby was, so one year I didn't make, I went for county trials, I didn't make it. which was obviously tough at that time, I thought it was, I thought it was everything. so I went and I was obviously a bit disappointed, didn't really, didn't wanna do anything, and then I think I just got that extra motivation, just to get better, keep working on my rugby. I was obviously still very young, very raw. there's obviously loads of skills that I just wanted to get work on. and then as you get older, as you get your, as you get your head coaches and all of that, you you keep, you gotta keep asking the coaches questions, it's never, go in for one-on-one meetings and get a bit more detail on what you can do or all of this stuff. try and get ideas out of them. also so the next year I got back into county, and I think it was a different coach. it's, one person's opinion. You gotta make sure that, obviously you go away and you work on that and what they've said. but don't get too disheartened about it. it's never as bad as it seems and there's always a way back in. so just keep when it does happen, because it will, it is happened to me a few times. it's not, you don't get this perfect career of never getting drop dropped or never getting picked. it's just how it goes. you just go away. you be the best version of yourself and you keep working hard. and then as you get older, you go through the academies and the U18s and you might not, boys don't get signed. There's only a select few that will get signed. but as we've seen, there's a lot of pathways into rugby now. uni, uni is a massive one, at the moment. there's a lot of boys that have come through the uni pathway. so a lot of those guys have, they, didn't get signed. They went to uni, played very well, and they've got picked up and now they're playing Premiership rugby. Like Tom Pearson for example, came to Irish, came through, I think Cardiff met, came to Irish, now at Northampton, won the league, got an England cap. so it's never, it is never the end. It's never the end. keep working hard. a hundred percent. I fully agree with you. I remember someone saying, a hundred people could be, yes, you should be starting. Then one person could be like, no. So it's one person decision. Yeah. And you take that feedback, you keep asking questions, you keep, keep, working hard, and then you never know what's gonna happen. no. I remember when we were interviewing Marcus Watson, he was like, ask questions. Definitely. Yeah. I think that was one thing I maybe didn't do enough of as I was coming through, didn't ask enough questions of coaches. but now I understand how important it is, and I try and you try and ask as many as you can definitely. Would you wish someone had told you at grassroots level that you only figured out later? I think at, grassroots. You play it to, you play it 'cause you love the game, don't you? You're playing it with your mates. You are, you're running around playing rugby, getting tackled, tackling people. and it's good fun. I think as you get a bit older, try and understand. So I, when I was maybe your age, I was watching rugby, so I enjoyed it. and I was there for a good time and just loved watching rugby. But as I got older I didn't really get out of that. I think as I was, as I got to about 18, 19. And my coaches were kinda like, you need to watch more rugby and actually analyse it. So as I was, maybe when I was a bit younger, like 15, 16, I could have maybe been watching the games and trying to analyse and understand what was happening, like the tactical side of things. watching my position, what they do well, and try and replicate that like you do with Cheslin Kolbe Step, you'll watch it and try and replicate it, don't you? So I definitely have many times I can't quite get it. It's getting there. so yeah, you just try and watch your position and, understand which maybe I didn't do as I was coming through. so now obviously part of the job you have to analyse, there's a lot of analysis that goes into it. so yeah, that maybe, probably that I'd say. Hundred percent I was trying to work on my drop kicks and I saw this video of Jonny Wilkinson, so I was looking at like the hand positioning, and that really helped. Yeah, definitely. It's, it is exactly. It's tiny things like that, isn't it? It is one little change can make massive differences. Was there any wingers you looked up to when you were look analysing games? Obviously Anthony Watson, who's just silly, good. Jack Nowell, obviously another very good winger. I think when you look back a little bit more in time, look at Jason Robinson, the way he was just able to step and just go, he was gone. that's a huge skill. So I think those three, I think Jack Nowell was maybe a little bit more like me or was trying to be a little bit more like him, the way he got involved. He was very good at picking around the ruck and he was very, he had a very physical game. and then obviously Anthony Watson's step thought was similar to Jason Robinson. The way he was able to just step and like he was gone. he was very good. And then, yeah, so they're probably like the main 3, 2 2 are a little bit different. I say Jack Nowell's that physical winger that was very good at picking up and there's obviously, I dunno if you remember, there's chat that he was like gonna have some games at Flanker and or have a go at flanker during a game or something. so yeah, I was maybe a little bit more sensitive. And then, like I say, what, being able to watch Anthony Watson's footwork, and try and replicate that. And I'm obviously lucky enough to spend time with both of them. I pick their brains, obviously. Anthony, I was with, Leicester and spent a bit of time with England with Jack Nowell. so I was very lucky enough to spend a bit of time with both of them. Yeah. Yeah, no, Jack Nowell looks like has a flanker build as well. Yeah, he was, he was very hard to tackle. He also, yeah, it was him. He, one of the first games I ever played against him was Irish and Exeter. And I remember, I think he put Vaseline on his legs and I remember like tackling him and just sliding off and my hands was covered in his Vaseline. I was just like, what is this? Trying to get it off and I think the ball came and dropped it or something. So it's Vaseline, that was on my hands. Yeah, no. Some of my friends at 7s, they're putting baby oil on their legs. Yeah. Yeah, it's a good, it's a good idea. It's. Yeah, but it kinda, when you are rubbing it on, 'cause you have somebody else rubbing it on for you, it does mess up your hand of it. You have to go wash them. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We have to, we, we got the physios to do it. I used to do it back in the day. Just get the physios to get a glove on and put some vaseline on. And when you're talking about club and analysing games, did you always wanna be professional? If not, what age did you wanna become professional? yeah, I think probably about, 14, 15. I was like, I want to, I definitely wanna make this. I think at that age, you, there's a few boys that are in like academies and they'll go off to their academies on a Monday night and then come to training in their academy kit or whatever. And you, I was I wasn't quite there. I wasn't in one of those academies at that age. and I think that gave me, a bit of motivation. I was like, yeah, I want to, I wanna become professional. And then I did, have you heard of Ace College? Think I, it rings a bell, but. So you go to a college and you study, and then you have this thing called Ace where rugby is like part of the pro part of your like, schedule. So at Irish we had, obviously Hazelwood was down the road, and then we had our college, which was like a 10 minute walk. So we'd obviously studied, do everything in college, and then we'd train a gym at Hazelwood. And so I went for, I went to trial there when I was 16. yeah, 16. And then after one of the trials, the coaches came up to you and said oh, what'd you do Monday night? So I was like, obviously nothing. oh, do you wanna come up next Monday or a couple Mondays for academy wanting, I wanna put you on trial. So I think that happened and then I was like, yes, this is, it. made the most of this. obviously did, well enough. Played well in those two years. 17, the 17, 18, years. Actually my 18, when I was 18, I did struggle a bit. I was torn my hamstring twice. So I actually didn't play much in that year, but in my first year, obviously played well enough to get signed. so I think, yeah, when I got, accepted into the academy, into this ace college, I was like, this is make, make a real push. and I can't let you, it's the closest thing you can get as, to professional rugby at that age. I think unless you go to private school at that age, it's the closest thing. So when you do it, I was like, oh, this is, amazing. I get a Wednesday off play a game on a Wednesday afternoon. I get a half day on a Friday. so I was like, yeah, I've gotta do this. and then yeah, played well enough in my first year and thankfully got signed. Such a cool story. Yeah, there's been a few lads that have come through. ACE, Johnny Williams played for Wales. Plays for Wales. He's a Scarlet. I think he is. He came through Ace. yeah, no, there's a lot of boys that have, done it's good pathway. It's good fun. A is very good fun as well. We had a host fa I was at a host family, most weeks. So there's me and another lad in there. We were living in Hampton, which is a nice, area. so yeah, it was good fun. Very good fun. sounds so cool. When you talk about your hamstring injury, are you good with recovery and good with stretching, or you like you not very good with it? Yeah, I think obviously I was very lucky that I had the physios and they give you the rehab. but now I've touched wood. I've been very lucky with injuries. so you do you prehab. So a lot of it, we call it fortify at the club. So we do, you do extra hamstring work and extra calf work. So if you do that, then you're readying your body for that high speed and for the demand of a game. it wasn't, it was never really a thing I took seriously until, I started playing properly. So maybe about 20. I, kind, I found two things that worked. I tried a lot of things, a lot of recovery. I tried hot pod yoga. I've tried cupping. I've tried the hyperbaric chamber. there's obviously stretching, mobility stuff that would always be numero uno and sleep. They're the two most important things. but the two things I found are ice baths, which I hate, which is weird. So I hate ice baths. love a sauna only when it's obviously cold out. If it's warm outside, you don't wanna go into sauna, so it just dehydrates you as well. but the two things I found I loved was compression legs. So I've got a set of Normatecs, which, do you know what they're, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah, so I've got a set of them, which I take everywhere with me. away games, they'll always be with me. home games, I'll get on day before night before the game and then morning of the game I get on them. and then during the week I get on, I get into a cryo chamber. So I hate ice baths, but I love a cryo, I think cryo is a little bit easier because you don't get the shock of the cold water. so yeah, I love a, those are the two, those are my, those are the two that I found works great for me. but you have to try. There's so much stuff to try. obviously masseuses, we are lucky enough to get masseuses at the club. I've got a massage tomorrow morning, actually, which I'm very excited for. so yeah, those, the, I got sleep mobility, compression, cryo when it's available and a massage if I get those five things right. I know I'm probably in a good spot for the weekend. and then obviously all the, other stuff around it. But yeah, there's a lot to try out there. There's good fun and you have to enjoy doing it as well. If you don't enjoy doing it, you're not gonna, there's no point in doing it just for the sake of it. so I, I don't enjoy doing ice baths. I don't do ice baths. or if I do, I only go to my calfs or my hips. Yeah, no. When we interviewed Asher Opoku-Fordjour, he said, yeah, his favourites, the compression boots as well. Yeah. Yeah. they're like, I think some people love 'em, some people don't. but I absolutely love them. They're by far, the best thing I've ever bought in my life was those compression boots. When I was at, Rosslyn Park, I was lucky enough, so there was like this, I think it was Elite Academy Tent, and you had to scan this barcode. Then you got compression boots. Dollars. tournament. I, they're so nice and you just sit down, go on your phones. Exactly. Yeah. Can chill out, put someone on tv or you're on your phone like you say. yeah, was that good fun at rosslyn Park? Oh yeah, no, I loved it. So us U13s, it's not competitive, but next year we, it is competitive and we've got, I think we've got a really good team, strong team, hopefully cross fingers. That'd be good. Yeah. Who won it this year for U18s? Yeah. it was Wellington College, so I think that they won most things in the U18, like St. Joe's Festival. No, not that. No, the main one was Rosslyn Park. They won them. Yeah, they're really good. It was so cool watching them. The who was it? They were playing Whitgift. Whitgift were playing, but it was so cool watching Yeah. Good final. Yeah, it's It's a good day out. It's a good, it's a very good tournament. It's it is good fun. Yeah, a hundred percent. But I remember, I think it was two years back, it was like boiling hot. So when it's like hot, the ground's hard and it's so one of my friends got concussion. It's not Oh, no, but a little bit soft. Oh yeah. But, when it's, when it's sunny, it's good to watch, for it to play. Yeah. Too hard. Yeah. Who's been the most influential teammate in your career, and what have you learned from them? there's, oh, there's a few I can think of. So Topsy Ojo, I was coming through the academy. and he helped me a lot. obviously a legend, legend in the game. He helped me a lot. Stephen Myler was very helpful. Again, I was coming through the academy. he was obviously at fly half, and he just, gave me like little tips and tricks, and just gave me confidence. Him and Paddy Jackson. obviously both Fly Halfs, but both of them helped me massively in just my confidence on the pitch. they were, they helped me a lot with my mindset. when things don't go right, just don't worry about it. Carry on. so those two were, very helpful, obviously, Topsy Ojo like I said. and then I had, there's two coaches. There's James Lightfoot Brown and Dec Danaher, who are now at Gloucester. So we're not, mates anymore. No, we are. But, those two were probably obviously with, my dad as well. But those two are probably the most influential on my career. they like lights helped with the skill stuff.'cause he was a back as well and he brought, I was with those two 16, they brought me into the academy. I did Ace with them. I got signed, they carried me through the senior academy. They were always there through that time. And then obviously I got, I carried on progressing and they were still there and still helping me. so they, I owe so much to those two. I think, yeah, so Lights helped me a lot with, my skills. So did Dec, but Dec was probably helped me the most with my mindset and like my emotions. but both of them together were like amazing. I couldn't have asked for better coaches. they're always there for me, always there when I needed them. and yeah, I owe so much to those too, but player wise, yeah. Lucky enough to play with some world class players. Obviously Handré Pollard last year, Julian Montoya. God, yeah, I'm very lucky to play with some of these players. Final question, Ollie, what are you most proud of in your rugby career to date? Most proud of. without a doubt playing for England without a doubt. I know it's only twice. but just the whole occasion, something you dream of, you are dreaming at the moment, obviously about doing that. so actually being able to, run out, sing the anthem, get a cap afterwards, saw my parents during the anthem whilst I was singing it. I managed to find 'em in the crowd. seeing family and friends afterwards. it was just amazing. It was, yeah, it was so cool. whenever I go to Twickenham, sometimes my favourite bit's the national Anthem, you feel like you're with the team and. yeah, Just belting it out top of your lungs. yeah, it's, yeah, it was amazing. like Freddie Steward, I see him belt it out. Yeah. Yeah, he is good. But Ollie, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to be on the podcast. I really appreciate it and I loved chatting with you. You're absolutely welcome. It was a, pleasure. I loved every second of it.