Rugby Legends with Arthur Dickins

The Rugby Trainer: Coaching Rugby's Next Generation

• Paul Banks • Season 1 • Episode 19

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0:00 | 44:30

Arthur sits down with Ben John, known to millions as The Rugby Trainer, for a conversation packed with practical advice for young players, parents, and coaches who want to understand what really improves rugby performance. From building the world’s biggest rugby coaching channel to working with elite names like Marcus Smith, Ben explains why simple habits repeated daily often matter more than flashy sessions once a week.

The episode moves through Ben’s own playing story, from academy rugby and Welsh age-grade honours to professional rugby with Ospreys, including what it felt like running out in front of 60,000 people at the Millennium Stadium. He shares the nerves before kick-off, the sudden calm once the whistle goes, and why even great players like Sam Warburton still felt nervous before matches.

There is also a brilliant deep dive into player development: why backs should obsess over footwork, passing and defence; why forwards now need handling skills just as much as power; why smaller players can still dominate despite size differences; and why players often miss out not because they lack talent, but because they stop too early. Ben uses examples from Antoine Dupont, Cheslin Kolbe, Aaron Smith and Roger Federer to explain how top performers stay present under pressure.

For parents and junior coaches, this episode is full of practical gold: how to create habits at home, why games matter more than endless drills, why coaches should never kill creativity too early, and why ten extra minutes of deliberate practice every day changes everything over time.

Arthur also gets Ben’s thoughts on what he would change about modern rugby, why cricket can make young rugby players better, what one piece of equipment matters most, and the biggest life lesson rugby still teaches long after the final whistle.

If you’re a young rugby player trying to improve, a parent helping from the sidelines, or a coach shaping the next generation, this episode gives you simple ideas that can genuinely move your game forward.

Arthur

Hi, I'm Arthur Dickins and this is my Rugby Legends podcast. In each episode, I interview an amazing rugby player or coach to get their insight and advice for young rugby players just like me who are keen to learning it better. In this episode, I'm speaking with Ben John, who many of you will know as The Rugby Trainer on YouTube, which is the biggest rugby coaching channel in the world. Whether you're aspiring to go pro, or simply want to improve your game, Ben's channel offers brilliant training videos to help anyone enhance their rugby performance. As someone who has benefited from watching Ben's tips and drills, I really wanted to get him on my podcast to dig into his coaching expertise a bit further. I hope you find Ben's knowledge and wisdom as helpful as I did. Enjoy. I just want to say thanks so much, Ben, for taking the time. I really appreciate it.

Ben

No problem at all, thank you for asking, when I got the email, I was like, ah, that's awesome, awesome to have the email, so, it's cool to be a part of mate, thank you.

Arthur

Thank you so much, Ben. Quick question. With your South Africa shirt, did you get that in like a mystery box? Cause I saw on your Instagram you got another shirt as well.

Ben

Yes, so I got a Leicester shirt as well, where's that? it's called Blind, I should know the name. Harvey, I know the guy. Harvey, really good guy. Blind, Blind Spot, I think it's called, it's like a mystery box you can, and these two turned up, and I was like, oh my days, that's gold. So, it's two real cool shirts, he's doing some real cool stuff. I think it's called Blind Spot, I'll have to double check. Yeah.

Arthur

cool shirts.

Ben

Thank you. Yeah. A hero of mine, Percy Montgomery, you probably don't remember him. If you do, amazing. so he came over to Wales to play for the Dragons. So I got the shirt, got my hair like him Now Yeah. So, yeah. cool shirt.

Arthur

So firstly, Ben, for those who haven't seen you on YouTube, can you tell us about the rugby trainer?

Ben

Yeah. So the rugby trainer, so started about, what was it, six years now? And the aim of it was to just literally get one person to pick up a rugby ball. And just do something, whether it's an actual skill or just have a bit of fun with it. And the aim was to do that every day. How can I inspire one person every day to pick up a ball? Because that's what I love doing. I just wanted to share the love that I have, I have for the game and try and inspire people to either play the game or just to get outside and do something. Because it was lockdown at the time and everyone was just sitting inside the house. So, and obviously it was a lot of exercises going on inside the house as well. But if I was a youngster, like yourself, I would not be doing press ups, I'd be doing, like those rugby balls behind you, I know they're signed, but I'd be, I'd be spinning them around, I'd probably be annoying my mum and dad. so I thought I'd do some drills to help them learn some skills as well.

Arthur

I remember when you posted on your TikTok, with the Spongeball, I actually ordered one the next day, cause I thought it looked really cool for indoors as well.

Ben

Oh, no, how, how, it's going well, do you like them?

Arthur

I absolutely love them, if I'm pinging it around and sitting with my brother Silent as well, and it's really nice to grip it as

Ben

Ah, sick, ah, cool, well done. It's perfect for inside the house, your mum and dad don't get too annoyed when you, when you're launching the balls at your brother. So, that's, that's cool.

Arthur

What do you love most about doing the channel?

Ben

what I love most about the channel is, firstly, I absolutely love, like, the rugby, the rugby itself, the skills side of it, training, moving, all the exercise part of it, and sometimes I am filming on a nice warm day on my own. Next day then I'd be really lucky to be filming with some of the best rugby players in the game. And then next day after that, so for example, I could be filming with Marcus Smith one week, or one day, and then next day then I'm coaching a brand new player who's never played the game. So I get to see all, I get to see this, all the spectrum of the players, but also it's my absolute passion. I love it. I, even if I didn't have a channel, I'd still be doing exactly what I'm doing. I'd be going out. Doing some one to one skill stuff, so it's just amazing that it's my full time job now.

Arthur

speaking of the rugby players you've trained, which one was probably your favourite?

Ben

Oh, favourite? I'm going to say more skillful, cause like you, I can't pick a favourite, cause there's been so many good ones, but the more skillful players I've done video, content with. on the female side, Mo Hunt, do you know Mo Hunt? Oh, unbelievable, what she can do with a rugby ball is, is madness, so Mo Hunt is there, she's up there. and then for the men's side, ooh, I went over to the Leinster lads and did some filming with them and just the ball skills, even on the forwards, Joe McCarthy, we did a challenge where he had to pass the ball through like a gap this big and boom, straight away, put it through, left hand, right hand, easy work, so, some of these big lads as well have got some mental skills.

Arthur

I remember you did that with Marcus Smith as well, through like two tackle bags, try to get it through.

Ben

He was, he, Marcus is brilliant. He, he can just do, everything. And he's such a nice guy.

Arthur

Almost five years in, what has surprised you about your journey?

Ben

what surprised me? Firstly, to be able to do this full time. So, what this is, is like, I do one to one coaching, but also I film content, and I've grown an online academy. So, having the ability to do four or five different things within, Like the rugby trainer's quite cool because I can't sit down for more than 10 seconds. so I'm always moving. So having loads of different things is keeping my mind busy, which is amazing. and also what's very cool is the impact it's having as well. A lot of players come up to me and say,"oh, you helped me", or"this helped me", or"your channels helped me improve my game". So that's been, that's been, one of the things that's blown me away.

Arthur

That's always nice to hear.

Ben

Exactly. Yeah.

Arthur

Before coaching, you played for the Ospreys. Can you tell us a bit about your career as a professional rugby player?

Ben

So I got picked up by the Ospreys Academy at the age of 16. So, picked up the Academy and then you play 16s, 18s, I had my 16s Welsh Cap, 18s Welsh Cap, and then I played my first ever Game for Ospreys professionally at the age of 18. and it was so funny cause I was really skinny. I had to, I'm not sure, obviously the kit now is a lot tighter, but back then this bag, we had to tape the arms up on my kit just to try and keep my, cause it was flaring out. so it was, it was quite funny, but that was a great experience. And I played then for about, what was that? Up to 2000. Yeah. So about eight years, I had an eight year career and then I finished there with injury, but it was amazing. So Ospreys at the time, they were called like the Galacticos. So they had some of the best players in the UK, even some players from New Zealand come over and play, and it was mind blowing the talent they had there. So it was quite cool to walk around as a youngster in the academy seeing some of these incredible talents and, learning from them as well.

Arthur

If it wasn't due to injury, would you still like to play professional rugby?

Ben

So even though I'm injured, I still play locally. I play touch rugby, tag rugby with a lot of my mates. So even if I didn't have the injury, I would still be playing. But just, I love, I do love it. So now I'm just doing tag rugby. It's equally as fun. Love it with, with my mates. There's a group of us from the gym. We get together once a week and just, yeah. Yeah. It's cool. It's cool. It's cool to do. It's cool to do.

Arthur

What was your favourite moment of your career?

Ben

Favourite moment of my career? Ooh, I've got a couple. first one was I got a chance, Ospreys had this day where it was called Judgement Day, where they get to play all four regions within the, within Principality, which is Millennium Stadium at the time. So, two games, four, regions, and they play. Play each other. so we played Cardiff, Dragons, played, it's four games on. And we played in front of like 60, 70, no, 60,000. I think it was 60,000. Yeah. And it was just mad to be on the Millennium Stadium, the national pitch with a big crowd and the Ospreys did well, playing with some amazing players. So that was, that was a cool experience. I didn't explain the judgement day well enough there, so it's four teams, two games, so you don't play everyone once, but that was a cool experience, loved that, and also, got to play alongside some of my, mates from school, Sam Lewis, he, he was a mate from school, I grew up with him in the school days, so it was cool to play alongside him and Ali Jenkins as well, so it was cool to share it with some mates.

Arthur

When you're playing in front of 60,000 people, how did you deal with your nerves?

Ben

Oh, it was tough. Yeah. but it's funny. So you get nervous, but then soon as kick-off happens, it all disappears. You just get, it's just the unknown. You get nervous at the unknown. And then soon as the balls kicked, boom, you zone in on, and you feel comfortable as well. As soon as you're on the pitch, that's your, that's your, comfort zone. You know, it's, you feel comfort there cause you know, what to do, what to do. And it just switched off, it's weird. You get so nervous before and then all of a sudden, nerves are a good thing beforehand, but you've just got to be able to control them and get to the point of kick-off and you're still ready for the game.

Arthur

I know, that's similar to, before I do a podcast, I get really nervous, but once I'm in the conversation, it's really a relief. It's quite nice.

Ben

Exactly, it's the nerves that you're just thinking ahead and then now because they disappeared, you're just in the moment. so it'sh, it happens to everyone. I remember speaking with Sam Warburton, which was like a rugby legend. have you had him on here, Sam Warburton?

Arthur

Oh no, I really want to get him on soon though, he's another cool player, good pundit as well.

Ben

call him up. well, we'll try and get his email for you. but so even he said exactly the same. He used to get real scared before games, real nervous. And then same thing. Soon as the referee's whistle went, boom, switched in, in the moment. so he wouldn't thinking about the next steps ahead and that's what that nerves is altogether. Yeah.

Arthur

cause when I remember you were with him, he actually tackled you with a tackle bag, which is quite funny.

Ben

So that was a good video. so I, I know for a while on videos, on content, tackling does well. Anything to do with tackling, anything with a big hit does well, specifically the sound. So the sound of the bag, hit it. So, first of all, I did it without the tackle shield behind, a tackle mat behind me. So I said, Sam, I want you to hit me as hard as you can, and I'm just going to stand up straight. And he was like, are you serious? And I was like, just do it. I've, I've checked my insurance, it's fine. So, he just run up, I give him a run up and he, and I wasn't expecting him to hit me that hard. And the technique that he's obviously, picked up being one of the best tacklers is he drops high and he hits up and he got underneath my rib cage and just hit me straight up in the air. He cleaned me out off the floor and I was like, that's going to get some views. So it was good. All part of it, all part of the fun.

Arthur

What aspects of being a pro rugby player did you enjoy the most and which the least?

Ben

I really enjoyed obviously the friendships that you built, the connections, off the pitch, real cool. on the pitch, the thing I love the most is It's a great feeling, I don't want you to make a good hit, but for myself, it's if you, if you cut the line, you make a line break, and it feels like everything's slowed down, and you're going through, and it's just clear field, and you're through, those are always cool moments as well, Those moments, isolated moments when you make a line break or you, you make those good tackles and whatnot. but then few moments I didn't enjoy. So I didn't really enjoy, even though I love doing fitness and stuff, I didn't really enjoy, enjoy like weights, going to the gym much, even though I do a lot now, I still do it, but I didn't, I just wanted to be on the field and just throw the ball around rather than lifting heavy. Cause I'm not very, I'm not as strong as some of the other players. So, they used to lift a lot heavier than me. but I just wanted to just get it done, do a little bit of fitness and then, get to the pitch straight away.

Arthur

When we had Will Greenwood on he said the exact same thing.

Ben

Ah, did he? Well, yeah. Will Greenwood, he's a beast in the gym now. He's, he's doing his rowing and he's, I see his scores. yeah. And he's doing some unbelievable work, but it's probably something similar. He loves the fitness and the conditioning side, but maybe not the lifting heavy.

Arthur

Who is the most influential team mate or coach in your career and what did you learn from them?

Ben

one that stands out for me is from school. I had a, I had a couple of great coaches. Firstly, from my club, I'll go with my club. My club, Gareth Bamfield, big shout out to him. So, he, He just used to say to us, a little bit of magic. If it was a really tough game, really tight game, and we needed something, he would just shout on the pitch, guys, a little bit of magic, or Chris or myself, a little bit of magic. And what that meant to me was, just try something, do something, with no repercussions, use your footwork. Do something that is off script and it's unique to your own. Like, for example, you Arthur, you might have real good feet. Just give that a go, mate. Try and step someone. And then, yeah. And then, in school then I had a coach, Mr. Tannucci, and he used to tell me always be in the try-scorer's photograph. So what that meant to me, that's a weird, weird thing. what I meant to be is always support the person who's just about to score, and then I used to pick up so many trys then from being always in support of the, of the try score, cause the 15 might tackle them, boom, back inside, pick up a few trys. So, those two are the big ones, and then, professionally then, I used to like Brad Davis, we had, he's a defence coach and he was brilliant. He helped me massively with tackle technique and also, being able to switch on and off in, in matches. So, everyone's like super focused, where he used, he taught me a couple of little triggers on how to, come away when the game's dead and then when the game resets back on, being able to switch back on. He, he was great.

Arthur

When you're coaching a little bit of magic, was there any kind of magic you did that you were at the time very impressed with?

Ben

Ooh, so I used to, I used to like, I'm a big fan of my footwork and hitting the line really hard. because I grew up around a lot of centres in Wales, a guy called Scott Gibbs who used to literally run as hard as he can. Cutting against the grain and being able to catch and then use footwork to slide through gaps. So, I used to practice that all the time. There's a guy, Tom Shanklin, as well, did exactly the same. Very good at cutting lines. And I remember reading a book, Brian O'Driscoll, and he said something, I can't remember the actual facts, but he said if he's a centre and he's not cutting lines, more than, I don't know, 60 percent of the game, 70%, he's not doing his job. I can't remember the actual quote, but I read that and thought, oh, that's something I need to add to my game. Just cut lines, try and break the defence down and, that was my magic. I used to just steamroll onto the ball, catch it, boom, and then use a bit of footwork and hopefully glide through the, glide through the space.

Arthur

Speaking of quotes, are there any mantras that you live by?

Ben

Any mantras? Oh, so, I'm, I'm really, well, that's what I'm really impressed with you, is just your ability to consistently do this podcast, week after week, month after month, and people forget about, people want success within two to three weeks, but I always think it's important. Think of it as, this is what I've built my academy on, is can you do small increments, like 10 minutes here, 10 minutes there, and can you do that consistently every week and then build up on month. And then in a year's time you look back and you've, you've, like, you've come on so much, like the people you've podcasted, you could have easily give up after three or four, but, it's, so, so the quote is, people overestimate what they can do in a year, but they can underestimate what they can do in 10. So, think of it as, right, this is a long term thing, I just consistently do it, I'll learn along the way and in five years time, see where you're going to be, you'll be amazing and that's where, that's where the, the, the big gains come in.

Arthur

I just heard one, quite similar to that. It's consistency and obsession beats talent.

Ben

Y exactly and, you see, you see loads of that, you see loads of people that do really well and you're like, oh, they've just popped out of nowhere, but behind the scenes, they've been doing that for 10 to 15 years. as you said, they've been mastering their craft, working on their, and they've been obsessed by getting better and better. they've been, they've failed a whole lot of times, like, and they, every time they fail, they're learning from it, and that's the quickest way to learn, is by failing, learning from that failure, and just keep on going, keep on going, keep on going. so that's cool. What mantras do you like?

Arthur

Oh, one of my mum, one of my, one, my mum told me one where it's I really I love, I've had, I've known it for a year now, is I dream my painting and I paint my dream. I really like that. It's you dream your painting and then you paint it. I really like it.

Ben

I love that. That's cool. I really like that. And, I had a, somebody asked me the other day, what was my goals in rugby? And my goal in rugby was, I had a dream, which was to play for Wales, but then my goal was just to represent my local club. I just wanted to play for my local club. I didn't think about being professional. I was like, well, I want to play for, my dream is to play for Wales, but I really want to play for my local club. And that was like the, and then when I reached that, then my, my next goal then was something else. But my dream ultimately was, was to play for Wales. So as you said, you paint, you paint your dream. Over time then you can just nip away at it by, being consistent.

Arthur

Exactly. different about how you coach players now, versus how you were coached when you were very young?

Ben

I'm going to start off, so the way I coach at the moment is individual skills, and I picked that up from my dad, he used to, as a kid, he wasn't a rugby player, we didn't do any rugby stuff, he was footballer, but he used to take us down the park, me and my brother and sister when we were 10 years old, 11 years old, and we used to spend a couple of days a week, just doing something, doing something, doing something, and that built the habit then of spending time on your own game. And as I got to about 13, 14, I was a little bit more serious in rugby, I would go down the park on my own for Christmas, I got a rugby ball. so I would go down the park and just build that habit of doing those extras, extras, and that's where I coach now, is trying to get someone like yourself. Right, spend 10 minutes after your team session working on your pass by doing this, this and this. So, what I'm trying to get people is to build the habit and then the goal can change, as long as you've built the habit then. So that's probably the big thing I focus on is individual skill, creating habits, but I bring a lot of, I try to bring a lot of fun to the sessions as well.

Arthur

No, I remember on your TikTok, I tried to do it every night before bed, it's when you get the ball and you pass it, and then you do 5 perfectly on your right hand and 5 perfectly on your left.

Ben

Oh and that, have you, do you still do it?

Arthur

I still don't, I'm doing it tonight as well, I'm just trying to do it consistently.

Ben

Exactly, and that's it, like, even if you do five terrible ones, or they're not as good as, just, you've done it, and then the next day, then, you give it a go, and then, as I said, in a year's time, you'd be like, my pass is, I'm passing like Finn Russell here. So, well done, mate, for doing that. Has it improved your pass?

Arthur

Oh, definitely, I've seen improvements over the past week, so I'm doing it for the past 3. definitely seen improvements.

Ben

oh, well done, what, you just started a few weeks ago?

Arthur

Yeah.

Ben

Oh, mate, well done, that's, that's brilliant.

Arthur

Thank you so much. What skill is the hardest to coach in young players?

Ben

Skills the hardest to coach? I find this the hardest one to coach, I think this is the most important one, but it's hard to get buy in from, because you're like, that's not a skill, what are you talking about? It's the, your energy off the ball, so when your ball is not in your hand, what are you doing? Are you chasing kicks? Are you getting into the line? Are you working really hard for your team mate? Like, what, did you watch England against Ireland the weekend?

Arthur

I was actually there at Twickenham.

Ben

I bet it was, I bet it was, I bet it was awesome. But, do you see the Irish centre chased down,

Arthur

Marcus Smith, it was, at start I thought it was second row, he's that tall, but it's really impressive.

Ben

So, things like that, just that extra, extra couple of percent, just, are you doing that? And it's quite hard for, for youngsters to buy into because, because they, they don't see it as a skill. But it'll take you a long way, just pressuring, I remember, well, if you think of it, France, I think it was South Africa, France, and, yeah. World Cup where Cheslin Kolbe chased down the kick and charged down that extra, he did that on his own, everyone else was behind the post, but he did, he tried it and got a massive reward for it, so, you'll be surprised the amount of rewards you'll get by just, chasing, chasing, chasing, doing those extra little bit and working hard when the ball is not in your hand.

Arthur

yeah I loved watching the highlights of that game, Jessie Kriel's thighs, they're, like, huge.

Ben

Wild, wild, legs, but, that's, I think that's probably, it must be going down as one of the greatest games in history of rugby, surely. One of the top five, surely. Mad game.

Arthur

Be.

Ben

yeah.

Arthur

As a back, if I was going to focus on three training drills, what should they be?

Ben

If you were to back training drills, firstly, I would drop the word drill and just focus on the skill, ok, so the drill, for example, a skill, you'd have 10, 000 different drills that you can do, so focus on three skills. As a back, is that ok to change the question?

Arthur

Oh perfect.

Ben

Cool. So, I would get you footwork. And being quick and using your footwork because as a back, speed wins. If I'm against you and you're quicker than me, if you can just step me, boom, you're going to get to a weak shoulder and you can create a little bit of opportunity to get that ball away. so that, also, I would get you to just to work on your, your passing skills. But it's not just spin passing, it's every sort of passing. like pop passing, end over end, over the top, all of it, offloading, all the little subtle skills. them two, so footwork, what else did I say, passing, and then the third skill then would be, I'm going to package it up, defence. So that is your, being able to See what's in front of you and also react by making a good tackle. And again, with tackling, there's not one tackle fits everything. There's a variation of different tackle techniques you might need to learn to try and adapt to the picture in front of you.

Arthur

No, I tried to learn from Aaron Smith, cause he is honestly one of the cleanest passers I've ever seen.

Ben

Aaron, are you a scrum half?

Arthur

I play a bit, I'm trying to play a bit of scrum-half, but I mainly play fly-half.

Ben

Ah, two, two, two roles there which you live in the dream mate, that's cool. So Aaron Smith's passing, oh, unbelievable, it's, er, just, breaks it down well, uses his fingers and hands so well together. He's, he must be, one of the best passers, again, ever. Unbelievable, isn't he? And he's still, and he's still ripping it up now.

Arthur

He is. What about as a forward?

Ben

Oh, as a forward, so defence would be a massive one. obviously, in the forwards you have slightly different roles, but, again, I'm going to say footwork again for them, because they're running at men and women just as big as them. So, if you can find a little, like, Caelan Doris, Irish number 8, he's a big bloke, but his ability to use footwork and get to a weak shoulder and then find a little, you know, Gap and offload is, is, is incredible, so, that and also the, the skill of being able to continuously run through the line, so, do you know what I said about hitting lines earlier, it, when you catch the ball at max pace and somebody's standing in front of you or just the side ready tackler, your brain automatically thinks, I need to slow down. But the skill is can you just keep training yourself to be able to keep running through, keep running through, keep running through, despite anyone being in front of you. whether it's going through a space and they're coming around or, so that, that's a, that's a big, big skill is the, the ability to ball carry effectively.

Arthur

It's quite scary for the tackler, as well.

Ben

Oh, exactly, so, with the footwork included and that's all included on the footwork, the ball carry, and then the last one then. I would be, ooh, just handling, because forwards have to, we rely on them to push really hard in the scrum, and then two seconds later they have to get up and do some good pass and catching drill, catching exercises, trying to put us backs into good spaces, so, it's such a tough skill for them, they're tired, they've just got, They've just virtually had a massive fight in the scrum and they've got to switch in there to have a nice delicate hand, so if they can have real good handling skills, that's catching and passing, can they have a good defence and also have the agility and ball carrying skills, so that's the three little pockets there.

Arthur

What do you think is the hardest position to play on the rugby field, and why?

Ben

Hmm, what's the hard, pfff, ah, I know, it must be from me. Well, what do you think first?

Arthur

Personally me, I'd probably say fly-half with all the kicking and decision making, but then props, you probably have to rely on them the most, but I'd say for me probably fly-half.

Ben

Fly-half is very tough cause obviously the decisions are on you and if your team doesn't do well, usually the fly-half gets the, gets the, gets a lot of the, a lot of the, the abuse doesn't, doesn't he or she. but props, oh, that must be tough, specifically now cause the scrum is so heavy, imagine being able to, like, watching Italy scrum just dismantling people, it's mad, so, I would say, I agree with you, the prop, or the number 10.

Arthur

No, the props have to do a lot of neck training as well.

Ben

They've got necks like this, it's wild.

Arthur

Yeah. If I was to invest in only one piece of training equipment, what should I buy?

Ben

Just a rugby ball. I keep it simple. Just the rugby ball. Just to get down the, down the park on your own. And then if you need any cones, you can just use clothes, bring a, bring a bag of socks with you, put'em on the floor. Rugby ball's always good. Yeah. Do you go down the park or down the club with your mates and just grab a rugby ball and just play just games with, with one another?

Arthur

I've actually got an all, half, probably half a pitch sized garden, so occasionally, probably once every week I'll go out there, then I'll play rugby at school, but I'll go out there and do kicking, passing, work and all that stuff.

Ben

ah, that's perfect, well, that's, that's exactly right, yeah. And, and you've got a brother who's, how's your brother?

Arthur

he's actually, he's 15, so he's in

Ben

so that's good, so, cause he's bigger than you, you can, you can take him on a bit, and that's, that's a good challenge for you.

Arthur

No, I was actually doing a couple drills of him, skills, last weekend.

Ben

Ah, nice, that's cool.

Arthur

In rugby, it seems being big and good is better than being small and good. What advice would you give late physical developers?

Ben

On average, the big players do really well, cause they're big, but if you think of some of the world's best players, the ones that stand out at the moment, your Cheslin Kolbe, who's obviously one of the best wingers. We've got one in Wales, Shane Williams, These guys are not tall at all, but, currently Arendse as well, just, they're just making people look silly. It's mad. So, that's the beauty of rugby, is a place for absolutely everyone. And, it is difficult, the age of that 13, 14, I've coached loads of young players, and that 13, 14 age is tough, because you get Some absolute mutants growing up here, and then you might stay short, but then, you've got to be patient, and what I try to tell them is just stick with it, keep working on it, because you've got to think right, in six or five years time, you're going to catch up with them, and when you catch up with them, you're going to have the skills, you're going to have the footwork, the things that you've been working really hard on, it's going to have a massive benefit to your game, so it's tough now, but it's going to be tough for those players later on when you're going to be, you're going to be sharper and better skilled than them.

Arthur

I know, I remember, I think you put this on your Instagram as well, Antoine Dupont against Italy, they're behind the back, and he sent one of the forwards flying.

Ben

Antoine DuPont, how is he throwing people who's 6 foot 6 around the place? It's wild. And he's, I'm not sure how tall he is, but I think he's, must be like 5'10 or 5'9 something like that, and he's, incredible strength. So, that's the, that's the cool thing about rugby, is for all shapes and sizes.

Arthur

What's the difference between players who make it and players who almost do?

Ben

There's a few different elements obviously, one of them could be luck, like you're in the right place at the right time, that could be one. Persistence as well, like, a lot of people probably, like we said earlier, they fail, they failed once and they think, oh that's it, that's me done. Whereas some players have had to fail a few times and still stick with it and still believe in themselves and still push themselves, and then they get that lucky break, and then boom, they take their chance. So, there's different elements to it, but I would say the ones that make it, are the ones that have consistently performed well, through their, through their, I dunno, their young age, and then they get picked up, and just, it's very tough to say, but, the ones that just miss out, I would say, are the ones that, have they tried everything? Did they go to a different team? Did they, did they go and speak to their coach and ask the coach, oh, what do I need to work on? Try and get to where I need to go. Cause ultimately the coaches are there to help you as much as they can. So if you can grab a coach and be like, right, can you just spend 10 minutes with me? what do I need to work on? How do I get to where I need to go? And just find those 10 minutes here, 10 minutes there to work on them skills and craft them skills.

Arthur

Cause I remember when we were interviewing Freddie Steward, he said he had to work extremely, hard to get a professional contract.

Ben

and, I listened to, I'm not sure if you've seen it, do you know a guy called, Federer? tennis player?

Arthur

I have, Roger Federer.

Ben

Federer and Djokovic, they said something similar and they asked, well, how are they individually, they were interviewed and what makes them better than the rest. And And he said something like, he said something like, at the end of the day, everyone in my position works just as hard as me. And what he said that's different from him is he can stay in the moment longer than anyone else. So, for example, if you've just made a mistake, You or I would be thinking about that mistake a little bit longer than where he would. He would just be like, right, mistake, boom, move on, let's go next point, next moment, next moment. He can clear his mind and stay in the moment longer, or quicker than most people. And he said that is probably what sets him apart. He can just, it doesn't matter if he's just hit some incredible shot, or he's made a terrible mistake, does not matter, it's in the past, can he be in this moment? That's a skill that I think many people can try to pick up to help them, because we always worry about making a mistake and think, oh no, I just dropped the ball there, well, just don't worry, go, it's, it's next moment, let's go.

Arthur

No, in my head, if I make a mistake, I'm like, if in doubt, just leave it, stop even thinking, just leave it.

Ben

And there's loads of little things that you can do. You can, you can just shake it off or just, give yourself a little brush or whatever. Just little triggers that you can do to yourself to help you just stay back in the moment.

Arthur

For the junior rugby coaches out there, what would you say are the biggest do's and don'ts?

Ben

so, the junior rugby coaches, the biggest do's. So, Games I love, and it doesn't have to be a eight on eight game. You can, I like to do my sessions. I like to do mini games, like 2v1's, or be really creative with games. And sometimes even allow the players to make up rules in the games, to be creative themselves. So, because ultimately we just want to play games. We don't want to just do drills all the time. drills help. Yes, but we still need to include some fun. We want to like, when you and your brother do your training. You, I bet it gets competitive and then you try to try and beat him and he trys and trys to beat you and he tried to, it's a bit of competition and that's what comes with games is the competition element. That's what's fun. You want to try and win. He's trying to beat you and you're like, all right, let's have you. so the first thing is get as many games in there as you can. And it doesn't have to be rugby specific. You can do loads of different things. Just get players touching the ball, moving around. and then the don'ts. The don'ts I would say is. what I didn't like with coaches and me is when they used to tell me, don't do something, like, I don't want you to offload. Don't offload. Because of the chance of it making a mistake. I wouldn't want, I don't want that. If I had a youngster now, if they make, and they can't offload effectively, I'd be like, right, let's find out why. You can't, the offload's not working. Is it because you can't do the skill or is it the wrong decision? And then that, then we go back to the 10 minutes work that we're doing after the training saying, right, we're going to work on your offload now, boom, boom. And then hopefully then the offload comes into play with him or her when they're a little bit older, a lot, A bit more, experience doing it. So that's the, my pet hate is telling people don't do this. because I, I would get annoyed with it myself. If somebody said, Ben, don't offload, I'd be like, I'm offloading.

Arthur

I get bit annoyed when my coach does that as well, but I think take risks.

Ben

Exactly, and if they say, for example, don't kick the ball, don't chip it over the top, whatever, be like, right, ok. He's obviously saying that because, something's gone wrong. So, why's it gone wrong? Oh, it went wrong because somebody beat me to the ball. Ok, and that's a turnover. Ok, so that means, what do you think that means if somebody beats you to the ball?

Arthur

That's their ball.

Ben

Their ball, and also, was it the right decision or the wrong decision?

Arthur

Probably the wrong position if their full back is still back.

Ben

Exactly, it was the wrong decision, but the skill was good, so applaud yourself, be like, the skill was good, I kicked the ball, I could have been there, but, maybe it was the wrong time, so park that, and think, right, next time, I'm going to give myself a little bit more space to kick into. so that's the best way I like to categorise is, is it decision making, or is it skill?

Arthur

Next time I'm in a game I'll make sure to do that.

Ben

Yes, that would be cool, let me know how it goes.

Arthur

I will. What aspect of the game of Rugby would you like to change?

Ben

I'm a big cricket fan. This is a wild, this is a wild theory, right? It'd be quite cool to do some sort of, some sort of, like a bonus. you play a card. I don't know, you play a card and you get five minutes. If you score a try in that five minutes, it doubles your points. Or you get three extra points or something, like a power play, it's called. You've got one each of your team, you put a power play in, right, ten minutes. If you score a try, your team gets, I don't know, five more points or something. that's, that's the bit of, bit of fun with it. But specifically, I would say it'd be quite cool. Hmm. Actually, there's a few thoughts come in my head. I would like a shorter season. obviously it's business. That's why it's a long season, but I think if you condense the season down to say it's nine months long now, if you condense it down to seven months or six months. Then how excited would we all be, be like, right, it's a few weeks now until the rugby season starts. There'd be more people, I think, wanted to go to games and watching games. And also it helps the players recover as well. It's such a tough game. So six months after the six or seven months, have a few months rest or whatever, to get them ready, get more skill into them, get more preparation into them. So I've gone on a, a tangent there. So I'm going to say the powerplay is a cool little fun thing to maybe chuck in. And also, maybe shorten the seasons.

Arthur

I think that's a very good idea to be fair and shorten the seasons.

Ben

Specifically for the youngsters, like, who likes to play in January when it's cold and wet and it's mud up to your knees?

Arthur

Not many people.

Ben

Normally, and I'm from Wales, so I used to be extra muddy in Wales.

Arthur

I think like the worst thing is playing, I remember I was playing a tournament like a couple weeks ago, it was, I think it was IAPS, it's where, it was a rugby tournament and I just got wet and soaking and I had another three games and I was there for another two hours and the cold and wet and I was, it's awful.

Ben

And even the grounds people as well, they're looking at the pitch like, you're wrecking my pitch there guys. That's going to, that's going to be ruined for another two months. but in the winter, call it off, have a few months break, and then, you can recover, you can do other things, you can do, I don't know, you can probably, you know, We, I'm sure the RFU or something can introduce indoor, touch rugby league for a couple of, couple of weeks or something. just to keep you out of the mud and, keep the, appetite for rugby higher.

Arthur

Like Ollie Lawrence did, Shorter Rugby season, he would have been back.

Ben

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You'll be less injuries. Like it looks like the boys, well, the Lions boys, British Lions boys, they've been virtually playing for two years. This is crazy.

Arthur

Yeah.

Ben

Yeah.

Arthur

Quick question, Ben. As you've been talking about cricket, do you still play now?

Ben

There's a cricket field just up the road from me, and I was a bowler, and I, I walk,walknto the park quite often, and I'm like, I say to my wife, aw, next year I'm going to sign up to that. So I might sign up this year, T20's enough for me on a Tuesday night, T20, couple of overs, and then swing the willow. Do you play cricket?

Arthur

I actually do play cricket. I can't wait for the season. Summer as well. Get a little tan.

Ben

You get a little tan, a little V tan, is it? With cricket, it's such a good sport as well, because, it's the hand eye coordination, the high tennis ball catchers, or cricket ball catchers, you have to learn to have soft hands, otherwise that cork ball will ruin your hands. So, such a good sport for hand eye coordination, which has a good crossover then to catching, and high ball taking in rugby as well.

Arthur

I remember I saw on the England TikTok that for the second rows, what they're doing is chucking two tennis balls up and then you'd have to catch one and then

Ben

Tennis balls are such a good, such a good, does your dad take you down the park with a tennis ball?

Arthur

You could ping some down at me with a cricket bat and catch one, get some screamers.

Ben

exactly. So one thing, I always ask, get asked is, what should, like parents would ask me, what should I do with my youngster? And I say they're under the age of 12. I'd be like, right, get a cricket ball. get, not cricket ball, get a tennis ball, get a tennis racket. And as bad as it sounds, treat them like a dog. Get them chasing the tennis ball. High catching tennis balls. Just the hand eye coordination, but also you have to move your body a lot. And it's quite, and it's really fun as well. Chasing, chasing tennis balls. No wonder the dogs love it.

Arthur

Are you a spinner or a seamer in cricket?

Ben

Ah, so, it does sound bad, but my aim as a cricketer, I was a fast bowler, I, as a guy, Brett Lee, was, I'm sure you backed up, when I was a kid, everyone just seemed to bowl fast, it was crazy. so I would run down as fast as I can, and just, try and scare, scare the batsmen, that was my aim, just to scare them. And, it used to be, when I used to play senior, so I was young, and then I played, Sometimes you get called up for the senior, and as soon as the senior took his helmet off, I'd be like, nah, that's going back on. I'm trying to, so I love the fast bowling, try to bowl as fast as I can, and I do miss it. And with batting, it was just trying to cow cone a slog.

Arthur

Tonk it.

Ben

Don't get, no running here, no singles in my game, no chance.

Arthur

No, I actually used to bowl seam as well, but then my coach, I bowled some spin in the net just for fun. My coach was like, you're pretty good at that, so then I was like, stuck with spin.

Ben

Stuck with spin. The good thing is, cause you've got the seamer background, you can throw in the old, the old fastball here and there.

Arthur

Exactly.

Ben

exactly, I love that. Cool.

Arthur

Thank you. And last question, Ben. What's the biggest life lesson rugby has taught you that you still use today?

Ben

The cool thing about rugby, it has so many va, av, va, well, so many cool values. Like, everything that you learn from rugby, hard work, working as a team, like I said, dust yourself off, get back up on your feet, you go again, doesn't matter if it's a win or a lose, because the game's come around so quickly, it doesn't, even if you got absolutely smashed one week, you've got an opportunity to get back on it this week. Obviously the friendship side as well is incredible, the network, but the ability to, to take feedback, specifically as a, a pro, we used to get, we used to have analysis every virtually every day. After training sessions, you get feedback on your training, feedback on your games. So you'd always learn to take feedback and, and feedback is there to make you better, not to call you out. It's to make you better, you learn from it. So that's been amazing for me because that's what's helped me grow. My platform is, my rugby academy is, I speak to parents, ask parents what you need, and I don't take it to heart, be like, ok, that's, that's cool advice, I'm going to see if that fits, and if I can make it a little bit better, incrementally, and also with, my social media as well, like, I post something, and I'll see how it works, and I'll try and work out why it didn't work, and I'll try and get some feedback, from some of the people I trust and know, and just, it's such a good way of helping you develop as a person, not only as a rugby player.

Arthur

No, Will Greenwood said similar to that as well, he said feedback is the most important bit.

Ben

Ah, he was, I must've listened to his, podcast then. I'm just copying him. people do say he looks like my dad. But, that's cool. Yeah. Feedback. That's the, that's the thing. If you can get better at, at, Taking feedback on and learning, you start learning quicker and then any skill, whatever skill you want to learn, whether it's a rugby skill, cricket skill, or just a school, something you're doing in school, the better and quicker way, you can develop the feedback loop, you pick up skills so easily.

Arthur

No, it's really nice when you get feedback as well.

Ben

It hurts sometimes though, doesn't it? It does, it cuts deep sometimes, you're like, oh, okay, okay, I'm back on it.

Arthur

I just want to say Ben, thanks so much for being on my podcast, I really appreciate you taking the time, I love your videos, thank you so much again.

Ben

Nah, thanks, thanks for inviting me on, man.