Rugby Legends with Arthur Dickins

Fin Smith: England’s Next Great Fly-Half

• Paul Banks • Season 1 • Episode 17

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In this episode of Rugby Legends, Arthur Dickins is joined by Fin Smith, one of England’s most composed young fly-halves and a key leader at Northampton Saints. Still only 23, Fin already brings calm control, sharp communication, and a clear rugby brain to every game he plays.

Fin talks openly about life in the number 10 shirt. He explains why fly-halves make more mistakes than anyone else on the pitch, how elite players learn to reset quickly, and why communication can matter more than size or strength. From handling nerves at Twickenham to enjoying the responsibility of running an attack, Fin breaks down what it really means to be the decision-maker.

The conversation also dives into Fin’s British & Irish Lions tour experience, what surprised him most about world-class teammates, and the small habits that separate the very best players. He shares insights on injury recovery, training while sidelined, and why doing the basics just one or two percent better can change everything.

Packed with honest advice, simple ideas, and real stories from the top level of the game, this episode is essential listening for young rugby players who want to improve, think clearer under pressure, and enjoy the journey as much as the results.

Arthur

Hi everyone. I'm Arthur Dickins and this is my Rugby Legends podcast in each episode, I interview an amazing rugby player or coach to get insight and advice for young rugby players just like me, who are keen to learn and get better. In this episode, I'm really excited to be speaking with Fin Smith, Northampton saints, and England Fly-Half. Still only 23, Fin is fast becoming a legend at Franklin's Gardens with over 70 appearances for the club and scoring 700 points In his second season at Saints, he won the RPA Players' player of the Year. He's won the Grand Slam, the England U20s and has been capped for England 13 times. Last summer he was selected for the Lions for their tour of Australia. Hope you find Fin's knowledge and wisdom as helpful as I did. Enjoy. Firstly, Fin, I just want to say thanks so much for coming on my podcast. I really appreciate you taking the time.

Fin

Oh, mate, don't be silly. Don't be silly. I am really excited to chat to you for a little while. yeah, thank you for having me on.

Arthur

So firstly, Fin, you picked up an injury a couple of weeks ago. How is it and how are you feeling?

Fin

it's okay. Yeah, I've got a little tear in my calf, yeah, a bit annoying, but, yeah, I'm doing everything I can to get back fit. I'm, currently hoping to be back for around, for the start of six nations, yeah. Very good. Thanks for asking.

Arthur

And what kind of like stretches or exercise are you doing to make it get by the time quicker?

Fin

yeah, I'm doing lots of weights on it at the minute. So I've got a little weak point in my calf, so I'm just trying to get it as strong as I can. that, as well as lots of Wattbike sessions and all of that stuff, which is not so fun. But, yeah, doing everything I can. We've got some good physios here at the club and they're looking after me.

Arthur

And speaking of the club, when you are injured, how does your role at the club change?

Fin

yeah, it's a bit lonely to be fair. I don't get to spend as much time with the boys'cause they're obviously out on the pitch training and I'm sat inside in the gym, in the physio room. so I spend most of my days doing between the gym doing extra sessions or in the physio room, getting a nice massage or something like that. but yeah, just trying to do everything I can to get myself back fit. But yeah, it's a bit of a shame. Don't get to see as much of the boys, but there's a good group of injured lads at the moment, so being, yeah, spending some good time with them.

Arthur

You went on a Lions tour last summer. What was the best bit about touring?

Fin

That's a good question. Besides from getting to see everywhere in Australia, which was amazing, I would say, getting to know and play with and make memories with some of the best players from all the different countries, all the Scotland, Welsh and Irish boys. yeah, it was pretty amazing. there's some of the best players in the world on that tour and, yeah, just getting to spend some awesome time with them. Pick their brains around what they think on the pitch and just get having a real laugh with'em off the pitch and, drinking a few beers together. Yeah, it was, made some really good memories.

Arthur

Sounds amazing.

Fin

Yeah, it was, cool.

Arthur

And who did you meet? Who most surprised you on the Lions tour?

Fin

Good question. everyone was lovely. I got on, I spent a lot of time rooming with some of the Irish boys, so I roomed with James Ryan, Gibson-Park and Gary Ringrose a lot. But I would say, I had a really weird bond with Andrew Porter, the prop, I usually don't usually try and stay away from the props because they're sometimes a bit weird. But, yeah, he was, weird bit, but good, weird. And we got on really well. He surprised me. He was a lovely guy.

Arthur

Out of the Irish boys he roomed with, which was the nicest to room with?

Fin

I spent the most time with James Ryan. but I'd say, Jamison Gibson-Park. He was very tidy. Yeah, very almost obsessed with how clean he kept his side of the bedroom and, yeah, he's got some good music taste too. So he was on the speaker every night and we would just chill out and, yeah, have a good chat. So I'd say him.

Arthur

What kind of songs did you play?

Fin

Oh, what was he into? A lot of, a lot of New Zealand music. A band called LAB. He really liked them and, yeah, he got me into that. yeah, I'd say that.

Arthur

How are the roommates decided?

Fin

It was done completely randomly. So I think they, yeah, they would put you with all sorts of different people and try and get everyone to know each other as quickly as possible. so I was with loads of random people, and then when the test matches at the end of the tour were going on, they would put you with someone that they think you're really comfortable with. And I ended up rooming with Pollock for three weeks. so yeah, I'm not sure whether I was super comfortable with him, but, we had a good laugh. I obviously know Henry really well and, His, his positivity and high energy got me through the last weeks of tour. He was a good roommate to finish off with.

Arthur

what did you learn from your time spent in the Lions?

Fin

working with some of the best players in the world, the thing that makes them so good is just the basic things. They are, they probably communicate slightly better than everyone else. They scan slightly better than everyone else, but, it's, it is nothing out of the ordinary that makes'em so good. They just do the basic things over and over again and do them really well. yeah, I'd say that was probably what I learned the most, just to do the, things that I already do, but just do them slightly, 1% or 2% better.

Arthur

Going back to your childhood, then, what made you choose rugby?

Fin

I originally loved tennis. I played loads of tennis growing up. that was my favorite sport. I was a, big Andy Murray fan and, used to play loads, but after that, I'm from a rugby mad household. we were obsessed with it, and I went to Warwick, which was like a big rugby school. when I joined Warwick, I wanted to run around and play with all my mates. We used to get stuck in at lunchtime and stuff like that. So yeah, it was a mixture of family and school. which I imagine, is similar to you. Are you at a big rugby school?

Arthur

It's an All right. Big rugby school. And I've been playing a lot of tennis recently as well

Fin

There we are. Good lad. Good lad. Yeah, they're the best two sports for sure. For sure.

Arthur

And then speaking of Warwick, what was it like playing in the under 15 cup final at Twickenham versus Wellington?

Fin

It was, it was terrifying. I don't actually remember too much of that game, because I was so nervous. All I remember was that they had a big, strong prop, who was also called Fin Baxter, that scored, he scored a hat trick against us that day. And I still remind him about it every time I see him in England camp that it was unfair how much bigger he was than everyone else. But yeah, that was, cool. so Fin baxter was my arch nemesis for a little while. but yeah, it was. It was very nerve wracking. I remember, I was far more nervous for that game than I am for playing at Twickenham now. but maybe that's'cause I'm a little bit more experienced. But yeah, it was a really cool experience. and yeah, hopefully you get to play there soon. it's a very cool stadium.

Arthur

Exactly. And as a smaller player in a game of giants, how did you stand out? How did you make size not a disadvantage?

Fin

I'm a bit of a loud mouth. I like shouting at people. that's what you've gotta do. You've gotta get the bigger boys on side by, by telling them exactly what to do and where to go. So I'd say, being really good with my communication. And then, I worked really hard on my skills, so my passing and my kicking, I probably couldn't and still can't run over people and run around people. But, I like to think that I've got some decent skills that can put those bigger guys in a bit of space and they can do the running around people for me. yeah, I'd say my communication and really working hard on my skill set.

Arthur

Thank you. And what would you say you enjoy most about playing Fly-Half?

Fin

I'd say I love the fact that we get to be the big decision makers. We are the guys that sort of control the attack. we get loads of touches on the ball. We get the opportunity to see space. and I also love having the responsibility of doing most of the kicking as well, the, goal kicking and kicking to touch and stuff like that. yeah, I like being the boss. I find it very enjoyable. And, yeah, there's lots of, challenges you have to solve throughout the game, whether you're against. Different defences. They're putting more pressure on you, less pressure on you, all of that sort of stuff. yeah, I like the problem solving side of it as well.

Arthur

Yeah. I just play for half as well. I can't wait for the kicking in year nine.

Fin

Yeah. Oh, nice. When do you get to do that? What year are you in now?

Arthur

Oh, I'm in year eight. so I'll go into year nine in September. Should be fun.

Fin

Oh, so next year you're gonna be nailing it?

Arthur

Yeah, hopefully.

Fin

Good lad.

Arthur

And what would you say is the hardest part about playing Fly-Half?

Fin

I'd say, because you have lots of touches and you've got some hard decisions to make, and you've got lots to think about, I'd say there's gonna be times when you make mistakes, probably make more mistakes than anyone else on the pitch and, have more bad moments than anyone else on the pitch. And I say being able to get rid of those really quickly, is hard because, there's so much of the game left to come or whatever. So I always look at Fin Russell when he plays and if he makes a mistake, he just has a little laugh to himself and he gets on with the rest of the game. And I think that's such a good skill for him to have because, there's, gonna be probably a hundred opportunities later on in the game for you to nail that next moment. so yeah, being able to park it and move on, I'd say that's. That's one of the hard things about playing Fly-Half.

Arthur

What's one piece of advice you'd give to someone who wants to play Fly-Half?

Fin

Stay out the way of the big lads, and make friends with the back row so they can do all the tackling for you. that's a good bit of advice. but no, I'd say yeah, like, I spoke about earlier, I'd say really work hard on the skills. So your, yeah, your passing and your kicking game. And then, yeah, you want to be the boss. Everyone else on the pitch is waiting for you to tell'em exactly what to do. So the more you can be loud with your communication and, everyone knows what, they want you to do, whether that's, you want to move the ball wide or you want one of the big lads to get out the way. you've gotta make sure that you're really clear when you tell them. yeah, I'd say work on your skillset. Try not to get in, front of the big lads too much and, be as good a communicator as you can.

Arthur

Next time I have a game, I'll remember to do that.

Fin

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. are you a good tackler or do you try and do you try and get out of the way?

Arthur

I have an older brother, so when I was young he used to beat me up and I used to find some way to defend myself.

Fin

Yeah, exactly. Me, too, I think that's good for toughening you up. I think you learned the hard way then. I'm sure you'd be smashing boys then.

Arthur

What's one thing that fans misunderstand about your position?

Fin

that's a good question actually. I've never been asked that before. a lot of fans only see what happens on match day, so the 80 minutes that, That you're playing. And I actually think some of the best fly halfs I've played with are just like another coach. I, think of someone like George Ford. He, the fans will only see the 80 minutes that he plays at the weekend. But actually his, impact on the team is, throughout the week is hard to describe with how much of a good leader he is. he's like having another attack coach, another kicking coach, and another defence coach. Who then turns up and plays at the weekend. and I'd say as a Fly-Half, that's a big part of your job. You've gotta make sure everyone around you knows exactly what you want from them and what the tactics look like and all of that stuff. yeah, I'd say obviously the fans see the bit of the weekend, but, you've gotta really have an impact throughout the week as well so that the team can go and prepare to play well.

Arthur

Speaking of a match day, can you walk us through your typical pre-match routine?

Fin

so I, I'd say my pre-match routine for a home game starts, I'll talk you through Northampton. So we all, we go and do the captain's run the day before a game, and then I, do some kicking in that, and then I maybe have a nice massage and sit in a hot tub for a little while. So that's nice. And then we all go to a local coffee shop in Northampton and we all drink milkshakes. that's become a bit of a tradition from us. It, started in, the year we won the premiership. We all used to go and get a big milkshake the day before the game just to give us a bit more energy for the match. and then I'll go home, make a nice carbonara, try and get a good sleep. And then the next day I'll, wake up, I'll write a few things down on my notebook that I want to want to get right in the match. And then, try and stay super relaxed, maybe watch a bit of telly. And then as I drive in, I get a bit of pump up music going on. Try and really concentrate and, get myself up for it. And then, yeah, say hello to all the guys and then go and try my do try and do my best out on the pitch. But, yeah, I really like the day before a match.'cause you're told to carb load as much as you can. You get to stuff your face with all sorts of nice pasta and ice cream and things like that. yeah, there's lots of eating involved, which is fun.

Arthur

That sounds very nice.

Fin

Yeah. what's your, what's your go-to Prematch meal?

Arthur

to be fair, before the game I normally have a Spag bol. I love a Spag bol for a game.

Fin

Good option. That's a good option. Do you have any, do you have any pudding as well, or are you being healthy?

Arthur

I probably have a flake ice cream as of

Fin

Nice. Nice. I might, try that next week, might try That, sounds good.

Arthur

What's the moment when nerves usually hit you and how do you deal with this?

Fin

The moment nerves hit me quite often for me is, walking off the bus as we arrive at a stadium, whether it's Twickenham or we're playing away. The moment when I get off the bus and you see all the fans waiting outside, you're like, Ooh, and a bit nervous. But, yeah, I've got to a point now where I, like having nerves. I don't feel nervous and I'm not got butterflies. I'm like, what's going on? I, don't feel quite right. yeah, I get, happy when the nerves come along and it sort of tells me that I'm gonna hopefully be playing All right. and to deal with that. Yeah. I just look around at my teammates. I've got so many good players around me, and I know, if I'm nervous, then I'll, be all right.'cause they've, they're gonna look after me. Yeah.

Arthur

what are the unspoken rules inside a rugby squad?

Fin

Oof. We haven't got many rules. We're all a bit gross and a bit smelly, but, I'd say everyone, everyone gets onto each other about being late for stuff. You've gotta be on time. That's what everyone's, getting on each other's case about, turning up. Even if you're one or two seconds late for a meeting or a training session or something like that, you have to, pay a fine. So we're all, we're all strict on making sure that everyone's punctual, but yeah, there's, not too much that goes on that you don't know about. We're pretty, pretty big. And we all like to have a bit of a laugh with each other, and it's never too serious. yeah, it's, it is the best job in the world. It's just like going to work with your best mates every day and I'm very lucky.

Arthur

Is that how the TikTok came about with you, Freddie, Henry, and.

Fin

you Yeah, exactly. We're all, we were all very bored one evening and we thought, you know what, better way to fill the time than learn a TikTok dance? shock horror it was Henry Pollock's idea because, there was a camera involved and he loved involving a camera. But, yeah, we maybe took about 30 minutes to learn it and then, We took four or five trials and yeah, we nailed it. And then, the boys went and played the All Blacks that weekend did amazing. And Tommy was at home and, blindsided us and posted it all while we were out celebrating. And the next morning I woke up and it had 7 million views and I had all these messages on my phone. My dad was texting me, telling me that he was, ashamed of me and all of this stuff, but, yeah, it was very funny and I can't believe how viral it went. So maybe we'll have to do another dance, now we're back in camp. I'll, have you got any ideas, any of your favorite ones at the minute or, should I see what's trending?

Arthur

I think the one that you guys did is trending at the moment since its rugby season.

Fin

Yeah,

Arthur

that, probably have to look, there's not much trending at the moment for dances. Really.

Fin

Yeah. Se send me a dance over and I'll see if I can convince the boys to do it. Who should I, who should I try and get involved? Who would you want to see?

Arthur

Henry. Henry Ellis. I would be quite funny.

Fin

I think it might be difficult to convince him, but you never know.

Arthur

And probably whoever's the funniest to be honest,

Fin

be

Arthur

great. Okay.

Fin

I'll see if I can get Ellis to join in with us. That would be, funny. Watching him dance around.

Arthur

How is the changing room environment difference between Saints and England?

Fin

Saints is probably a little bit more relaxed.'cause we all probably know each other slightly better because, you spend a little bit more time at your club than you do at your country. I'd say England's a little bit more intense, because the pressure of playing for your country is slightly more than playing for your club. You go from playing. In front of maybe 10,000 people to 80,000 people. So you've gotta, you've gotta make sure you're a tiny bit more focused and a bit more switched on. But, yeah, I'd say it's fairly similar. the guys at England. just like to mess around and joke around as much as, much as we do at Northampton. And it's nice when we're in camp'cause we have all day, every day together. we can't get away from each other. We wake up at 7:00 AM and go to bed at whatever time and we're always just in each other's rooms having a laugh watching TikTok or TV and stuff like that. so yeah, it's just I dunno, are you a boarding school?

Arthur

yeah. I board once a week and my brother boards four.

Fin

Oh, really? So just that, just like being at boarding school. We're in a big boarding school. We all go to the canteen for dinner at night and then, go out and do rugby practice together as well. I'm sure it's exactly the same as boarding school for you.

Arthur

Yeah. So fun.

Fin

It is, it's good. It is a good laugh. I really enjoy being in camp.

Arthur

What's harder to turn around? Being 20 points down and playing well, or being 20 points down and playing poorly.

Fin

I, would rather be 20 points down and playing well, because I think sometimes you can be playing really well and, be conf, be confident with how you're doing, and sometimes the opposition of just do really good things or, there might be a breakaway, try an intercept and so there's nothing you can do about it, but, I think you can still feel good about yourself and good about the chance of you getting back into the game. I think when you're playing badly and it's not clicking, you start looking at each other oh God, what do we do here? yeah, I'd much rather be 20 points down on playing. and you, have a good feeling that you can turn it around that way.

Arthur

which of your teammates would you say makes you a better player?

Fin

I would say, Fraser Dingwall is great for me. him and George Furbank are two of the best communicators I've played with. and as Fly-Half it's amazing for me because they, pretty much tell me what to do and where they want me to pass the ball and all I have to do is listen. So they're really good because they're brilliant communicators. and then, yeah, I'd say, playing with Alex Mitchell as well, is he's great because. He gets me the ball out of the ruck so fast that I have lots of time. he's got a, he's got a good pass sometimes. but he, he, gives really good speed of ball. I get a little bit more time with the ball on my hands. And, I like playing with Mitch as well'cause he's the most laid back guy ever. if I'm, a bit stressed or a bit nervous, I look at him and he's always away with the fairies and that just about calms me down. yeah, I'd say so. Those are some of the guys that. They make me a better player.

Arthur

That's always nice to have.

Fin

Yeah. Who's your, favorite at Northampton then? You can't say, you can't say Pollock either.

Arthur

you and I quite really like Tommy Freeman.

Fin

Yeah. Tommy's good, isn't he? Tommy's. Tommy's great. He's a, he's another one like Mitch, Just away with the fairies the whole time. And then when you get him, the ball just does amazing things and you're like, how are you doing that? You're not even concentrating. But, yeah, he's great. He's great. And, he's my best friend away from rugby as well, so I spend, too much time with him, but, yeah, you should get him on this next. He's a, he is a lovely la You'd enjoy talking to him.

Arthur

Thank you. But I seen Edoardo Todaro, he went to a school, quite local to us called Ipswich. He's such a good player.

Fin

he is. And he is only 18 as well. But he is got some confidence that, boy, he's, yeah, he's got a real swagger about him. But yeah, I don't think I've seen an 18 with as much talent as he has. He is pretty special. every time you think he's gonna get tackled, he ends up, he's like very slippery, slips around and, gets through and, yeah. He can't stop scoring tries at the moment. yeah, he's cool. He's a, great player,

Arthur

very good player. And what would you say you enjoy most about being a professional rugby player?

Fin

I'd say two things. I'd say firstly is being able to go to work every day with your mates, and just mess around and, have a laugh all the time. Obviously when, you're training it's serious, the other four or five hours in the day you're just messing around and, getting on with, some of your best mates. And then I would say the best bit for me is the feeling when you're in the changing room after a win and you've worked really hard and, you're all exhausted. But you're so proud of everyone and, you're all having a beer together and maybe singing a song. I say that's the best thing because, you're all in it together. And when you win together, it's, such a good feeling. What about you? What's, your favorite part of, rugby?

Arthur

Oh, I love the social side of it. Like the match teas, the minute before the game, the team talk. I love all of that.

Fin

Yeah. Yeah. Just, with your mates. It's best. It's so good at school, isn't it? I love, I miss playing at school. It is so good.

Arthur

Yeah. Speaking of schools, what was your favorite part about schoolboy rugby?

Fin

I used to like, when we had a match on a Wednesday and you got, to sneak out, sneak out of maths class early, and then everyone would come and watch you playing at lunch. And I used to think that was cool, having some of the, some of my friends at school from years above or whatever, watching us play. but yeah, schoolboy rugby's such a good laugh. I miss that so much that those are the best times in my rugby career for sure. I very much loved playing at school.

Arthur

And final question, what are you most proud of in your rugby career to date?

Fin

I'd say my favorite match I've played in, I'd say, I'll tell you my two favorite matches I've played in that I'm really proud of. My my first one would be my first start for England at Twickenham when we played against France. And I was proud of that because I didn't have a very good first half. I made a few mistakes in the first half and I was a bit nervous and I was thinking, oh God, I'm not sure, whether the coaches will be impressed, or whether the fans will be impressed, because there's quite a lot of pressure. I remember being quite nervous for that game, and then I, was really happy I went out in the second half and I put all that behind me and I, thought I had a good game and we ended up, winning that one, and then that was, amazing. So that would be one of my favorite games I've played in. And then the other one would be for Northampton. Last season we went and played, Leinster in the semifinal of the European Cup. And they've got this amazing team, all these amazing international players play for Ireland or the All Blacks or South Africa. And we've got some great players too, but we're, quite a small little club in Northampton from a small little town. And we, went there and we beat them and that was, one of my favorite days.'cause I think no one really expected us to do that. And, We all turned up and give it our best shot and we managed to win. So tho those will be my two favorite matches I played in. I, was really proud to be a part of both of those games. but yeah, hopefully I'm, just at the start of my career and I'm hoping there'll be loads more awesome memories. yeah. what's your favorite memory of your career so far?

Arthur

Probably beating Colchester. That is such a close game. It's that's such a nice relief when you had a tough battle and it's the end of the game and all muddy and then you get

Fin

back.

Arthur

Have a bath.

Fin

Yeah. Is, Colchester your rivals? Are they like a school near you?

Arthur

that was for club but then for school, probably drawn to Culford actually.'cause we're on an unbeaten season and our last game was against Culford. It was 2 2 at the end. and oh, I was so relieved after it was a draw. We got on an unbeaten season.

Fin

Is it? Oh, good lad. That's very impressive. That's, I think that's where Tommy Freeman went to school at Culford. I'm not a hundred percent sure, but I think he did. But yeah, they're a good, team, aren't they? you'll have to get them back next year. Of course. No more, draws. You need to win.

Arthur

Exactly.

Fin

Yeah. I

Arthur

just want to say Fin, thanks so much for being on our podcast. I really appreciate you taking the time. Thank so much.

Fin

No, thank you very much. great to chat to you. You had some brilliant questions. thank you for having me on. And if, If I can help you with getting any of my, teammates on next who you want to speak to, let me know. I'll, I'll see what I can do.

Arthur

Thank you so much, Fin. I really appreciate it.