Rugby Legends with Arthur Dickins

Will Greenwood: The Pursuit of Better

• Paul Banks • Season 1 • Episode 16

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In this episode of Rugby Legends, Arthur Dickins sits down with England World Cup winner and three-time British & Irish Lion, Will Greenwood, for a wide-ranging conversation on leadership, learning, resilience, and the relentless pursuit of getting better.

Will reflects on life beyond the pitch, from his early days balancing amateur rugby with a career in banking, to his current role in the world of artificial intelligence. He explains how elite sport prepares you for the real world, why curiosity matters more than talent alone, and how the best players are always “learn-it-alls”, never “know-it-alls”.

The conversation dives deep into what made the great England side of the early 2000s so successful, the influence of teammates and family, the tactical demands of playing in the centre, and what separates those who truly make it at the top from those who almost do. Will also opens up about serious injury, the mental side of recovery, and the mindset required to keep moving forward when the body and circumstances try to stop you.

Packed with wisdom for young players, coaches, and anyone striving to improve, this episode is a masterclass in growth, humility, and high performance from one of English rugby’s most thoughtful voices.

Arthur

Hi, I'm Arthur Dickins and this is my Rugby Legends podcast. In each episode, I interview an amazing rugby player or coach to get the insight and advice for young rugby players just like me, who are keen to learn and get better. In this episode, I'm really excited to be speaking with Will Greenwood, Media rugby Pundit, England World Cup winner and three time Lions tourist. Will is definitely a legend of the game alongside Mike Tyndall. He formed perhaps England's most effective centre partnership of the last 30 years. On the March 2003 World Cup, he played in all but one of England's games and finished the tournament as joint-top try Scorer. Will played his club rugby at Harlequins and Leicester Tigers making 250 appearances before retiring in 2006. Since then, Will has been a presenter on Sky Sports, has written for the Daily Telegraph, is a speaker and works with a number of charities. Hope you find will's knowledge and wisdom as helpful as I did. Enjoy. So firstly, will, what's keeping you busy at the moment?

Will Greenwood

What's keeping me busy at the moment? That's such a good question. I retired a long time ago, 20 years. And, rugby players now are starting to earn quite a bit of money, but it's not a football or a Formula One or tennis or golf, where it's millions of pounds. it's good money we make a decent living whilst we're playing. But you need to go on and then go find work. Go find a job. I was really lucky I came from the amateur era. So professional rugby wasn't an option for me when I started. So I used to work for a bank called HSBC, and I was a foreign exchange trader in the early nineties and had the best time ever, and left there in 96 to play rugby. And so when I finished, I was really lucky'cause I'd been through job interviews. i'd, understand payroll and hr, and graduate schemes and five o'clock alarm calls and into the office. and finish that. And it's someone lot, it catches, I know it sounds strange, but it catches a lot of players, rugby players, and professional athletes from all other sports by surprise.'cause it's such an insulated environment, professional sport. you're, when you go to training, that's somewhere like Leicester Tigers or with England, you stay in a five star hotel and all the foods cooked for you. Someone books, you train travel. Someone books you your plane tickets, everything's done for you. And then suddenly it's would you, what do I do now? so having had that experience, I just, what's the best way of putting it? Just started applying for jobs. I started to do some work with Sky on the, on television stuff. but that wasn't full time. That's only on weekends. And I started to write an article, every week for the Daily Telegraph. and then. Over a course of about two or three years, I found myself working, I know this, in AI way before I like way before anyone before it was cool before anyone even knew what it was. So it is in call centers and ai. That's been my world for I bet you weren't expecting that answer, for the last 15 years. So I'm Chief Customer Officer for an artificial intelligence organisation that. Helps our customers have better conversations with their customers by predicting likely behavior and therefore pairing agent and customer correctly or better than just leaving it to random chance.

Arthur

That's very interesting. Thank you.

Will Greenwood

That's all right.

Arthur

who's the most influential teammate in your career and what did you learn from them?

Will Greenwood

Most influential teammate in my rugby career. Another great question. I am gonna answer that potentially in. Two ways, if I may, because he was a teammate of mine and I did play a season with him. My dad, so my dad was England rugby captain in the 1960s, and then England coach in the 1980's. And I had the pleasure of playing for Preston Grasshoppers, which is in the fourth division. So it's national two. I had the great pleasure of playing for Preston Grasshoppers with my dad when he would've been, approaching his 50th birthday. He had more, like Henry Pollock has a little bit of tape on, my dad looked like an Egyptian, he looked like Tutankhamun all buried and wrapped up. but he was tough and, I just watched him operate on a rugby field and thought, do you know what? He's 50 years old and he's still the best player on this pitch. He can neither run faster than anyone or lift a heavier weight than anyone on this field. And yet, and it just made me think and it be, it suited me'cause I was a skinny bean pole. It just, it was the first time I considered in rugby. There's a really simple phrase that the strong take from the weak, but the smart take from the strong. So there are very different ways you can play rugby and watching dad. And working with him to understand how to run a drift defense, how to slide and find an inside shoulder. And he was still doing it at 50. So he just, it's, like learning the dark arts, the tools of the trade. It's like going to a blacksmith and saying he's, you are wasting your time making a horseshoe like that. There's a much simpler way of doing it. And just understanding from someone who's been at the very top. That there's, different ways to get from A to B. So that would be from one angle. And then the most influential player I played with. I'm gonna say, I'm gonna tell you the ones I had the most fun with my Durham University team, and in my first year, 1991 to 1992. And do you know why? I still love those boys. Because this is a Friday afternoon chat, right? And in half an hour I'm getting on.'cause we all live in different parts of the world now. And in half an hour I'm getting on a Zoom call with them. I'm gonna have a beer together, I'm gonna toast good times. And in a very, not in a, not to be n. Now to bring this down a little bit, our second row died last year far too young. Daniel Simpson, Simmo, the great Ginger giant, and we love that bloke so much and we're just getting together to toast him to remember him. And it's just a reminder of the amazing people you meet playing rugby. And I know the photos behind me are sort of me in an England jersey. But the people I really remember love have stayed close to are still my best friends, are my uni mates, and that would be Benny, Minty, sadly, Simmo's not with us. Carman, Kano, we don't have real names. No one has real names. Do they all have nicknames? Dooley. Dooley's gonna be on the call. And, at a time when I was a fresher, which was the first year at university, I joined as a skinny little bean pole, fresher. And they were all second and third years, and they spotted something in me and they gave me a chance, and we went all the way to the final. We just got beat in the final by Loughborough, but we had literally, it's the best year I've ever had on a rugby field. so World Cups are great. Lions tours are great. I see those shirts behind you. I see the shirt you are wearing, and I go, oh, I'd love to wear those. But you know what, if I could wear one more shirt again, it might, it'd be my Durham University shirt. And that's, why Rugby's cool, right? You, find different mates in different places.

Arthur

Yeah, my mum actually went to Loughborough as well.

Will Greenwood

So we don't call it Loughborough but we call it Looga Baruga. And we had a rude way. they used to say, they used to call us, it's not a rude word, but they used to call us Oxbridge rejects.'cause at Durham you tended to go with Durham if you failed to get into Oxford and Cambridge. I failed to get into Cambridge. I got straight A's at A-level and they still wouldn't have me. but we rather nastily.'cause we always felt we were a bit. What did we feel at the, I'm not even gonna say it.'cause we used to say nasty things, but it wasn't rude by the way I hasten to add. It wasn't rude, but perhaps it's, perhaps it will. I'll leave that for another time. I'll leave that for this podcast. When you're 21 years old.

Arthur

And who would you say is better at rugby you or your dad? That.

Will Greenwood

oh, my dad. Yeah. I had, I had. Four shoulder reconstructions, two groin operations nearly died on a pitch in South Africa for the lions, and yet I genuinely said, I had, I, know you don't believe this. I had all the luck. He didn't. He just snapped his Achilles tendon twice at the wrong time. Unbelievably, in the old days, you kept fit by playing other sports and he got a squash ball in the eye, three days before an England, Scotland game as captain and never played again'cause he then snapped his Achilles tendon and then broke his leg. He carried on playing until he was 50. He played in Italy in the seventies for five or six years, led Lazio and Roma to the Italian championship. he was tough man. Proper, tough. So no, he was. He was a thinker, but also could be a muscle man so he could do it all, my old man. So I reckon he was better. Yeah,

Arthur

Thank you. And, then reflecting back on your playing career, what did you enjoy most about playing center?

Will Greenwood

I enjoyed most about playing center. It's in, I think, yeah, props will say they're the most important people. Because scrums are important. I'll say if you control the midfield, if you can control the gain-line, if you can win six inches either side of the gain-line with every carry, you're 90%. If you are 90% of the time, every time your unit, your midfield unit wins gain-line, you win. The game of rugby. So I loved playing center because of the challenge of playing against, South Africa where there would be two centers who would be built of concrete, who would run faster than The TGV, the very fast. Or the Japanese super train. They're so fast and they're so tough. You play against the Kiwis who would be built like buildings and be as flexible as an Olympic gymnast, and then you'd play the Aussies who were just born on a beach and could throw a ball and catch it behind their head when it's pouring down with rain and get out of something that Houdini couldn't get out of. So you had so many different challenges that you came up against. And so what I love variety in life and I love, you kids., You, might be 21 years old. I don't know. I apologise calling you a kid. you kids, you have a, you love a hashtag. And I, and what I hear a lot is hashtag beat the game, whatever it is. So I loved playing rugby. I loved being in the midfield. For hashtag Beat the game. What's the threat today? What's the opportunity? Where are they weak? Where are they strong? Where are we weak? Where are we strong? Where's the best combination of our strength and their weakness? What do we want to avoid? Their strength and our weakness? But where's their, where's their weakness? Where's our strength? I'm getting confused myself, but the whole point being is it was a constant challenge at test match level, to find a way to stop. Unbelievable rugby players and find a way to get past unbelievable rugby players. And the great pride I have in the England team that I played with is we beat everyone. We didn't beat everyone all the time, but at some stage we beat everyone home and away. And. That's all you can do in life. You can't. You can't, Roger Federer doesn't win every point. Lando Norris doesn't win every race, but can you beat'em enough times? So you get recognised as number one, and can you beat them enough times in the big tournament that you can forever call yourself a world champion and that England team. We were tough, but we were clever. it was cool to be in.

Arthur

And then speaking about positions, if you could do your career all over again, what position would you choose to play?

Will Greenwood

I'd be an accountant. I, I'm good with, I love numbers. I'm always, I've just done a maths. I've done A-G-C-S-E paper today. I, in my spare time, I just love doing. I, if I could choose, if I could do it all over again, I'd be amateur rugby player. I played for Rosslyn Park. my shoulders would still be connected. They wouldn't have any metal in my body. And, I'd now be a partner at Ernst and Young or something like that. And having a lovely time with a Ski Chalet in Val D'Isere as it is. If I could have it all again, you saying, which position would I play? the reality is, I, was, there are many six foot five fly-halfs because you, get charged down your foot's a lot closer to them than Jonny's is because he's five foot seven or whatever he is. So at my height, 6'4", 6'5". So I've got two options. One, loved it at full back. See everything. Like a general at the back and just understand and move the pawns around to make sure that the battlefield is set up for your ability to strike and score. Or if someone had given me enough protein powders when I was six or seven years old, although I'm not recommending six or seven year olds take protein powders when it's so, should say 16 or 17, I'd love to have played on the back row. Love to have followed my old man, played six or eight, just run around, run around having fun. Being a nuisance.

Arthur

Good choice. What would you say, what's one skill that you had to work the hardest on as a player?

Will Greenwood

Oh, it's so multifunctional now. the way I'm interpreting struggle as big something you're not very good at as something you don't necessarily enjoy and don't have a passion for. The lads I played with will tell you. I just didn't enjoy the gym. I just, and now I, unbelievably, now I love the gym. Now I can't play rugby and now I love the gym. Then, oh, I just wanted to play hands on the ball and run around. Why do we have to go to the gym? Why can't we have a game, another game of touch? Because my, I had to. Cover up my weaknesses, my struggles by being forced into the gym to be physically able to play at the highest level. But in my spare time, I just watched tapes and games and played and put myself in as many different difficult positions on a rugby field as possible. to understand that, could I find a way out of every corner could I. Find a way to a try line against a good team. Could I change the call on a move if it's pouring down the rain and the referee's taking a dislike to us and our wing has gone off?'cause he's pulled his hamstring just constantly just playing. Either in reality, out on a field or in my head. Like even now over there, I've scribbled down an move. That I think England could operate and could use. Now, that might just put players in different positions. I'm toying with a different defensive structure that defense is all about doing things that your opponents don't expect. They expect you to defend a certain way, so don't attack a certain way. So if you can defend in a different capacity, perhaps at the start of a game. They would then think, oh my God, we've done all that research. We've done all our and, what, are they doing? So bam, and then, but mitigate the cost of failure. So don't concede the try by being stupid, but put something into place that might get them thinking that they're not gonna play the team they're expecting to play. And in the meantime, you've got that backup in case they read it and they find a way around it and then you can drop back into the system. my brain, you probably picked up. My brain doesn't sit still needs to be quizzing, challenging, testing. The only time sits still is when I'm asleep.

Arthur

And then you said when you played, was there any ways you try to get out of the gym or try to make a shorter gym? Gym session?

Will Greenwood

So Dave Reddin, who is the fitness guy for us, who's actually now. Director of Rugby for Wales, he'd have all sorts of things. He'd, have my excuses covered off, don't worry, I can pick you up. Don't worry. I've got access to another gym. There was all, he was always, one, one step ahead of me, unfortunately. And then, and now I look back on it and I go, thank you. Because there, yeah, however much you just want to play, you have to. Go after. You have to try and improve those things in the game of rugby that might be identified as a weakness by the opponents, and you have to try and work on them. Don't, over fixate on your weaknesses. Polish your super strengths. Be your best self. Be the best version of you. Bring you to the game, but don't. Impact the team's ability to win by being lazy on stuff that teams could then expose you on. So they, I jest, a little bit, by the age of 27, 28, I was getting more used to the gym routine and'cause when we won the World Cup, I was 31, so I had a two, three year run where I probably trained like I should have trained since I was 17. But. I decided to focus when I was 17 to 25 on the puzzle, on the riddle solving side of the game, and then realising that if I want to get there and lift that trophy behind me, then I have to do a little bit of that work.

Arthur

It is very helpful. And who do you say

Will Greenwood

Who does your hair? It's what look are you going for at the moment?

Arthur

I dunno, to be honest. It's all over the place.

Will Greenwood

My nickname was Shaggy, the cartoon character.'cause my hair, like you always used to be all over the place. love it.

Arthur

Thank you. That's what I was going for.

Will Greenwood

The drag through a hedge look. Is that the look you're going for?

Arthur

In the middle,

Will Greenwood

Yeah.

Arthur

who would you say sets the real standards in a team, coaches or players?

Will Greenwood

So it's a little bit like the Coach v captain dynamic. I look at it like a CEO versus an MD CEO of 36,000 feet. Setting the strategy for a business, understanding where we want to be in four years, the md worrying about the next quarter's results and making sure we're selling enough cereal. we're, we've got enough stock, we've got enough new t-shirt, whatever it might be, to make sure we keep the lights on in the business. So it's strategy versus execution. It's innovation versus standards. It's to, I like this one. It's tomorrow versus today. The coach is always thinking about tomorrow. the captain is thinking about today. You can park next week, Clive. Right now we've got Wales to beat. So if I simplify it like that, and yet at the same time they had great differences like that, different roles and different personalities, but they shared a vision winning a World Cup. They shared standards. Both believed in, in, in a code of conduct, in a way of operating. And then when you look at them and break them down, Clive was after, the one similarity by the way. They had a lot of similarity. The one similarity they both had. They both love their players. And the captain, and coach has to love the, has to love the players. Either he has at his disposal to coach or he's lucky enough. To captain so I could go through that whole topic. The reality is you need both. You need a coach that can take you to places you wouldn't have gone to by yourself. You need a captain that you, there's a great phrase you can't hear because his actions are deafening. You. Because what he's doing is just showcasing brilliance, excellence, consistency, performance. Johno was unbelievable at that. You need a coach to innovate, to try and explore the grey areas. Chase after the marginal gains, the one percenters, and then he had a caption. He's utterly relentless about driving his team forward and just doing the basics. Of the game perfectly or as well as they possibly can on any given day. It's a fascinating topic that England team would not have won that World Cup without Clive Woodward, that England team would not have won that World Cup without Martin Johnson. I hope that answers your question.

Arthur

Wow, thank you. What's the difference between players who make it and players who almost do.

Will Greenwood

that's a 10,000 word dissertation. That is, you need a bit of luck. I don't like to use the word luck. You need a bit of luck in rugby. It's a violent sport. Bad stuff happens. yeah. A an ACL can go and Achilles can snap shoulder, can dislocate at a young age playing around with your mate, and you've then got a lifelong weakness that limits your ability to, be a two, to be a two shoulder tackler. So stay now, you can influence that by living like a monastic monk doing all the training, eating tofu. veggies, white meat, sleeping well, not touching booze. You of course you can reduce your frequency of injury, but in rugby, you find me someone who's won a World Cup that hasn't had a general anaesthetic and been in hospital having something repaired. So sometimes there are some great players. Who people will say, we didn't make it'cause he didn't have that. And then actually you look back at his back catalog, just somewhere in his career, he picked up something that never allowed him quite to be the person he could have been. Which I find really still, I find that really unfair and it's harsh, but it's a harsh reality of life. and it, so therefore, rugby teaches you a huge amount of resilience. I am gonna go. I've been buying time with that answer a little bit because I, believe in it, but I'm, I was trying to think in the background. My, my left brain was working whilst my sort of frontal cortex was talking. you need to be coachable, so you need to be, let me put it this way, you need to be a learn it all, not a know it all. If you think you made it, if you think you're good enough, you think you're big enough, you think you're fast enough you think you know how to do it. There's, there is no best'cause. There's always an iteration of best there is only better and players who make it. This is totally my humble opinion. Players who make it, I think. All buy into the pursuit of better, of doing something better, of finding a better way of doing it, of realising what's good enough to get me here isn't good enough to get me there. They're curious. They don't get spoon fed and just accept it without asking why could we do it like this with collision rich environments where discourse and disagreement is. Encouraged and not suppressed. curious, be pursuit of better? No, they haven't got there yet. No, they could. They're, the people. They're the people. When I look around, the teams I've played in that did well, I thought they all share that common characteristic.

Arthur

And then speaking of injuries, what would you say is the worst injury you've had?

Will Greenwood

I think I died, unconscious for 17 minutes on a rugby pitch, and Dr. James Robson wearing a lion shirt. They thought, he thought I was dead. They thought I was gone. I reckon that's pretty serious. The good news is I don't remember it. I was just knocked out on a pitch in Bloemfontein playing against Orange Free state. And everyone always says to me, oh, you're so brave coming back from that injury. I think people coming back from acls or shoulder reconstructions or having the nose splatter across their face, they're brave'cause they remember it. They felt it. I lost four days of my life where I just dunno anything. I was, one second, I was playing on a rugby pitch in South Africa. The next thing. And that was in Bloemfontein. The next thing I remember, I'm in Durban watching us win the second test in Jerry Guscot's dropping a goal. It's four days, that's 96 hours. I've got no idea. And yet in that time, I flew from Bloemfontein to Durban. Spent a day in Durban, spoke to my now wife who, I'm, I was just my girlfriend then. Spoke to her every day, spoke to my per nothing. There is. Not one, it didn't exist. I didn't live those four days, so it's'cause I didn't live those and didn't under, didn't feel the pain or anything, or the recovery. Actually it was a re, it was probably, I know it sounds really strange. Probably my easiest injury to come back from. there was nothing, there was no trigger. There was nothing that would remind me, oh, if I go there, this might happen because it literally, one second, I'm playing in Bloemfontein. the next second, it's 96 hours later, and I'm somewhere, I'm almost in another country.

Arthur

And what would you say is the hardest bit about retiring from the game?

Will Greenwood

I missed the competition, so I've replaced it in different ways. but I missed that Saturday afternoon, man, every Saturday for 38 weeks of the season. Less slightly less. So now you, trained for something and you got a result. It was a W it was an L or a D. You, you hated Ls. You didn't really like Ds, but you loved Ws and you wanted more of them. But the good news was if you got a W, then you have to do it again a week later. Otherwise you're a loser. And if you gotta lose, you got a week later, you got a chance to correct it. So I loved the constant competition, the constant results, the constant, either validation of the work you are doing or reminded that what you are doing isn't good enough. Do it better, faster, stronger, quicker,

Arthur

Yeah, I love the competition. I've got a game this Sunday and I can't wait for it

Will Greenwood

do you playing?

Arthur

thing. We're playing Colchester, which we lost to by one.

Will Greenwood

Oh, those toe-rags from Colchester.

Arthur

we lost one try, one try.

Will Greenwood

Are they what age groups that,

Arthur

under thirteens. They're very big.

Will Greenwood

are they farmers in Colchester?

Arthur

I think a couple of them are farmers. Not much

Will Greenwood

Oh yeah. Always at that age. One of them will have a beard, check his passport. Check his passport. I bet he's not 13, bet he is 18 masquerading as a 12-year-old.

Arthur

Yeah, I can't wait for it.

Will Greenwood

Get stuck in

Arthur

I will. And final question, who's gonna win the Six Nations this year?

Will Greenwood

well, the book-makers say France, book makers say France. I just, I think it gets decided on super Sat. I think it's England or France. No question. And, partly because I'm not completely discounting Ireland, but I, because the six nations can be really mean to a team one year and really friendly the next year.'cause Ireland this year on the back of the rebuild, they're having have to go to Twickenham, have to go to Paris. Conversely, England, you're like, we've got Wales at home. Gives us Ireland at home, Italy away. We're still the only team that Italy haven't beaten. I know Scotland's been a struggle. I just think we go minimum of three wins out of four to Paris. Ideally, we've won the Calcutta Cup again, even though Scotland have had a monopoly really on winning it last 10 years. And we go to Paris since the Grand Slam decider, God, I, there's so much to like about the French watching Bordeaux, watching the Toulouse pack and you I know it's slightly, it's not the Toulouse pack with the Bordeaux back line, but you could almost imagine, wow, what a team. But I think there's something missing with the French at the moment. Just don't think, in a one off game. They're mega, just, there's something missing with them and let's hope it stays like that. and, and we get over the line. in terms of,'cause I know you're under 18, so I think if you're looking for value or you're find, you're looking to build an argument and a hypothesis for, and not saying the obvious, which is the favorites are France. I think as an Englishman, as an English supporter, you can build a very strong case, a very strong argument that we'll have doubters say, you could lose on the second weekend in Scotland. There's no way you'll go to Paris and win. I hear that. I'll counter that with the way we're playing, the power, the depth, the speed, the confidence, and I'll say, I think we can get to Paris, if not certainly with enough bonus points to make, to give us the chance that if we beat France. We'll win whether we're unbeaten or not.

Arthur

Yeah.

Will Greenwood

That would be my argument.

Arthur

That's very interesting. Like I can't wait for the Six Nations. It's one of my favorite tournaments.

Will Greenwood

It isn't it just the best. Awesome. good luck against Colchester.

Arthur

Thank you very much. Will. And I just wanna say thanks so much for our podcast. I really appreciate you taking the time. Thanks so much, will.

Will Greenwood

That's alright. So I'm gonna ask you some feedback. What could I do better? where could I have been more interesting? what did you like?

Arthur

I loved it. I loved every minute of it, pretty

Will Greenwood

There must have been one bit where you're going, God, he's a bit boring. It's a bit dull. Which bits? I'll cut it out next time. There must have been, there's always you, like I always say, feedback is a gift. I need to be better next time. So what, which bit do I cut out?

Arthur

I think everything is brilliant. I think your advice, everything I, think me and the viewers, I think I'll love it.

Will Greenwood

you're a superstar with everything you're doing. I wish you all the very best. I look forward to you presenting the news at 10 in about 15 years time. And, more importantly before that, I hope to see you running out for the tigers, England and the lions in the very near future. And I get the opportunity to maybe write an article about you and say how awesome you are or be on the tail end. Go. Did you see him? I spoke to him when he was like 12, 13.

Arthur

Thank

Will Greenwood

a epic weekend.

Arthur

Thank you. You too. Thank you so much. Will.