Rugby Legends with Arthur Dickins

Martin Johnson: Winning at Every Level

• Paul Banks • Season 1 • Episode 15

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In this episode of Rugby Legends, Arthur Dickins is joined by one of the most respected figures the game has ever produced — Martin Johnson. Former England captain, World Cup winner, Lions leader, and a player who defined what standards really mean at the highest level.

Martin breaks down what it actually takes to beat the All Blacks, why England’s current squad depth is the strongest it’s been in years, and how small decisions — like when to take points — can change the psychology of a Test match. He also shares his honest thoughts on Six Nations contenders, leadership under pressure, and why champions are driven more by love of the work than love of the spotlight.

The conversation moves beyond results and trophies into the unseen side of elite rugby. Martin reflects on the game that shaped him, the transition from number eight to second row, and the skills big players must work hardest to master. He explains why props are the true foundation of any great team, why coaching can be harder than playing, and how to shut out noise from media and fans.

This episode is packed with lessons for young players, coaches, and parents alike — from mindset and resilience to teamwork, enjoyment, and long-term pride. It’s a reminder that rugby, at its best, builds people as much as it builds players.

Arthur:

Hi, I'm Arthur Dickins and this is my Rugby Legends podcast. In each episode, I interviewed amazing rugby player or coach together, insight and advice for young rugby players just like me, who are keen to learn and get better. In this episode, I'm really excited to be speaking with a true legend of the game, martin Johnson. Martin's career reads like the stuff of rugby boyhood dreams, Leicester Tigers captain, england captain, lions captain, Premiership winner, European Cup winner, grand Slam winner, World Cup Winner and Lions series winner! He's literally been there and done it at every level of the game. I hope you find Martin's knowledge and wisdom has helpful as I did. Enjoy. first, I just want to say thank you so much for being on podcast. I really appreciate taking the time, Martin.

Martin:

It's nice to get out, Arthur, although I haven't got out, but

Arthur:

So firstly, Martin, what did you make of England's Autumn Internationals?

Martin:

When you win them all, it's pretty good, isn't it?

Arthur:

Of course it is.

Martin:

and beating the All Blacks is always good, right?'cause it's pretty rare and even, okay, it might not be the greatest All Blacks team, but there's no bad All Blacks teams. So that always takes some doing I think the good thing in that game, right? They went behind early, didn't they? Two tries. And what can happen when you can see two tries early on, you can lose a bit of confidence, can't you lose some belief? But they came back and won the game and who was key, do you reckon in helping them come back there? Did you watch it?

Arthur:

I did. I was actually at the stadium on

Martin:

Ah, yeah. Yeah, Cool.

Arthur:

Who do I say key? I'd probably say put Marcus Smith off the bench. I thought was brilliant. Made a big impact.

Martin:

Yeah, but who got them back in the game before half time?

Arthur:

Fraser Dingwall scored, didn't he? And Ollie Lawrence,

Martin:

Who dropped two goals?

Arthur:

George Ford. That's it, George.

Martin:

because you want to talk about tries, which is cool'cause everyone wants tries, but sometimes you need to just get back in the game. And those two, those six pointers got them right back in the game before half time didn't it?

Arthur:

It did.

Martin:

So at half time they could say, wow, probably haven't played our best. Conceded a couple, but we're right in this game and makes a big difference psychologically, those points. So I thought he managed the game really well there and and eventually they won it. They won it really well. But it could have gone another way. It doesn't always have to go like that if you don't score points at the right time. So I thought that was key. But yeah. Good. Autumn, I went to the Argentina game. That was a tough game, right? The Argentina are always tough. Yeah. And England got away with, Ojomoh's try, ball bounce, right? and they scored another good try, but it wasn't easy. but it was good. I think it was generally a good autumn. Played lots of guys. So there's lots of competition in that squad now, isn't there for, places, which is always good.

Arthur:

There is. Thank you. And which players would you say stood out for you?

Martin:

Well, George Ford, I think in, in, in doing that and managing the game'cause everyone wants to talk about, glamorous stuff, exciting stuff, and, oh, we did this and did that. But number 10 and number nine, they've got to manage the game for you and get you in a place for everyone else to help you win the game. So I thought that was outstanding. him doing that. I thought Ben Earl was very good. but yeah, I, thought generally the England squad is on the, rise and there's plenty of depth now,'cause some guys weren't even there where they had some injuries as ever, some good performances. Some young guys came in and played as well. so yeah, I think it's looking okay. it's looking Okay. If we can just keep some key people fit

Arthur:

Yeah, we've nearly got a bomb squad now, which people are calling a'Pom squad'.

Martin:

a Pom squad. Who, do, who was, who do you think played well over the autumn?

Arthur:

I say Ben Earl starred for me and George Ford, mainly

Martin:

Yeah. Yeah. Feyi-Waboso on the Wing was all right, everyone had their moment I think, For those players. Now, some are maybe more, some are definitely more experienced than others, some more established than others. Everyone's got to think, right? I want to be in that squad now. I want to be in that team, that starting team, or the 23 at least. And I got to play really well and work really hard and all those good things to be in there because the coach has got lots of options, which is great. So it's, it's a competitive squad, probably not been that competitive for a long, time.

Arthur:

Exactly. And what are your thoughts on the England prospects for Six Nations?

Martin:

Yeah, it, who's, the top two teams in the Six Nations have been for the last few years? France, and Ireland. yeah, yeah. So we've got a, I'm just thinking, who's our games? We've got Ireland at home, haven't we?

Arthur:

Yeah.

Martin:

Ireland at home. France away. Scotland away. Wales at home, Italy away. So some big games there, obviously. you've got to win your home games. France away is always very tough, but that's a challenge, right? You've got to go there and try and win. interesting Six Nations, again, everyone's saying Ireland aren't great. They'll still be difficult, right? They'll still be difficult, they'll still be very good. I wouldn't ever, not think that. So yeah, I think our prospects are good, but. you get it wrong on the day, they're only one game. You get it wrong and suddenly you lose one. That's difficult. So hope, hopefully, I think what happened last year, everyone lose one. England, Ireland, and France all lose one. Yeah, Could be something similar to that this year if everyone plays well, but you never know that's the, joy of it. Have you got tickets to any of the games you're going?

Arthur:

I don't think so, but hopefully when the six nations come round, hopefully we can find something.

Martin:

Yeah, I've only got two home games, haven't we? So it'd be harder to get a ticket. And Ireland's always a big ticket in Wales, so we'll

Arthur:

about you?

Martin:

I'll be doing BBC, so I'll be doing other games, so I'll be, I'll go into Rome to do Italy, Scotland, I've got to go to Wales three times. Don't laugh. Yeah, it's good though. I enjoy, it. I enjoy going to Wales. It's good. Great atmosphere.

Arthur:

Thank you. And when you watch, say England v New Zealand, do you ever miss it?

Martin:

Do I miss it? Yes and no, because I watch it. I think, Ooh, that's hard. Did I ever do that? Did I get stuck in with those big boys? But then when, yeah, but then another bit of you thinks, wow, I wish I was still doing that. because it's quite, you're quite very privileged to, to run out at Twickenham, full house, get stuck in to the opposition. Maybe don't think so at the time. What do you think people feel like when they run out against the All Blacks? How do you think they're feeling?

Arthur:

Very nervous.

Martin:

Nervous, yet Bit anxious, amped up, ramped up to all of those. Yeah, it's good. It's a good and bad feeling. It's weird'cause it's good and bad, right?'cause you're nervous. You are anxious, you want to play well, you want to win all those things. So it's, yeah, it's a lot of adrenaline going about when they open the doors at Twickenham and you hear the crowd. It's pretty awesome though. A lot of adrenaline. yeah, it's cool.

Arthur:

What did you love most about playing rugby?

Martin:

I dunno what I like most. I like most things about it. I like being in a team. I liked the game. I just liked the very nature of playing the game. I like training. I enjoyed the training for it and getting ready for it. And at the time, again, it's like running out to play the game. I enjoyed the challenge of it and trying to be good and then trying to be the best. If we can win our games and be the best in the whatever it is you're doing. If you're playing for your club, try and win the league. If you're playing for your country, try and win the, there was only a Five Nations when I started playing, did you know that? Did you know it was only five nations? When I started playing, it was only it was only, yeah, it wasn't six nations, it was the Five Nations.

Arthur:

I did not know that.

Martin:

No? Okay, I'll give you a history lesson. So I'm old now. Italy weren't even in it when I started. There was a Five Nations. So you're trying to win that and trying to win a win the tournament or win a grand slam even, or a triple crown or something, and then try and beat the big boys from the Southern hemisphere, try and beat Australia or New Zealand. So I enjoyed all of it, enjoyed the challenges, the camaraderie of it with your teammates and, you played, you get to, you got to play today, didn't you, with your mates. Was it good?

Arthur:

It was very fun.

Martin:

Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what you get to do when you're my age?

Arthur:

What'd you get to do?

Martin:

to watch, you get to watch kids, and then you get to talk about games you played in a million years ago. So I was at the Argentina game and there was some Argentine guys there, got chatting and they all played, and this guy said, oh, I played for Argentina in the 1980s. Have you ever heard of the 1980s, Arthur?

Arthur:

I have in history,

Martin:

Have you ever watched any rugby from the 1980s on YouTube?

Arthur:

I've not.

Martin:

When you've got a minute, just watch it.'cause that's all you'll watch it for. Very different. I played against this guy in 1989 when I was in New Zealand. He played Argentina. I was playing in New Zealand. I played a club game. I played a provincial game against him. wow, what's that? 36 years ago. And then we meet at Twickenham and we start talking about the game and having a laugh about it and everything. So that's all we get to do Now. Talk about it like what happened in the olden days.

Arthur:

And what would you say made you successful?

Martin:

I liked it. I enjoyed it. I didn't mind, I didn't think it was hard work. Yeah, of course. Sometimes you're training, it's hard work, right? And you have to work hard. But I didn't dread it. I enjoyed generally going training, doing all those things, trying to be good.'cause if you've got a chance to be good at something, you're quite fortunate. Yeah. You've got a chance to be and be in good teams and go through those levels. so I enjoyed it. I Appreciated that it wasn't the worst thing you could be doing. when you want a cold, when you're on a cold, wet training ground and the rain's coming in horizontally and hitting you in the face, I thought there's worse things to be doing than this, so let's crack on. So I didn't mind the hard work, quite relished it in a way. I guess I grew up in a sporty family, so I grew up playing rugby. I, had a natural affinity to the game. I watched it a lot as a young boy, so I knew what was going on. I think that helps. You knew what you were trying to do, all those things, I think, and being big, that helped. you want to be a second.

Arthur:

When you were younger, how old were you when you started playing rugby?

Martin:

I didn't play till I was 11, so I didn't play, I didn't play club rugby. I was playing football, on a Sunday. And I played, when I went to secondary school, we played, we played school, rugby, state school, from 11. So that's when I first started playing. And we'd play both. A lot of our guys would play both. We'd play rugby, say on a midweek, and then Saturday might be a football game and then maybe a football game Tuesday and a rugby. So we had good PE teachers and they let the, they took us to games and we played. So I started when I was 11. Then when I was 14, I started playing club rugby, on a Sunday instead of football. And, went from there. Yeah. So I was only 11, so I didn't, play from age four. from 11, but I used to run around with a rugby ball a bit in the garden when I was younger. But I think playing any sport when you're young, is good. tennis, basketball, they're all good for movement and, hand eye coordination, all those things.

Arthur:

And when you played rugby, when you were younger, were you always a second row?

Martin:

No. Of course not. You don't go in the second row unless you really have to. I thought I was a back row. I thought I was a number eight, right?'cause that's where, that's where the cool kids are. so I played number eight. I thought I was a number eight. So I loved playing number eight, getting the ball running about. then when I got older, I realised I wasn't probably quick enough and I was too tall and lanky. So into the second row I went. Never to come out. Never to come out again. So yeah, I played back row. That was cool. but I, yeah, I had to be, but then when you get bit older, you appreciate actually second rows about hard work, right? You just got a graft, you have to do everything. Scrummage, maul line out, catch kickoffs, chase kickoff, tackle, all that stuff, all that good stuff, right? And some, and sometimes. Very, occasionally you might even get the ball not,'cause when I played it wasn't like, now second rows never really got the ball right. No one passed to us. so it was just a life of hard work. So for 10 years I never touched the ball Arthur, just had to push. But that, but then the work, the game changed a bit. The world changed. But yeah, no, I was a back rower then a second rower. I'm a second rower. Tall and slow.

Arthur:

And which was the best team you played in?

Martin:

I was lucky at playing some great teams, some great club teams. Some very, good England teams. Great good British lion teams. But I guess because we've been together so long. And we had such a good group of players and people, the obvious answer is the right answer there is probably that England team around 2001, 2, 3 that eventually won the World Cup because we played a lot more together. lions like the Lions 97 was a fantastic team, but we only went on tour once, if we'd played together for years to think how good we could have been. But we didn't get that. We didn't get to do that. So that England team probably. Because we were together a long time, some great, players. and yeah, we just got to work at it and get better.'cause the more games you have and the more training you have, the more experience you have. We didn't win every game. We lost some important games as well and they were disappointing. But then you learn, okay, don't do that again.'cause that wasn't cool. Losing there wasn't cool. Let's try and win. And we eventually got there. So that was probably the answer.

Arthur:

Thank you. And what would you say was the one skill you had to work the hardest on?

Martin:

Being nice, being not natural to me. the, one rugby skill, I'd probably say be big is your agility, right? Your footwork. Because you need to move your feet in all sports, right? In all times. So if you're a second row, you've got to be agile still.'cause you've got to do line out, you've got to moving the line out, you got to try and move your feet to tackle, all that sort of stuff. So agility, because when you're big, it's, if you're playing small guy, you're gonna get stepped, they're gonna beat you for pace. so trying to keep your agility. And when it's muddy as well. Like this time of year, what was it? What was the pitches like today when you played? Was it a bit wet and muddy?

Arthur:

It was, wet on the ground, but it wet and muddy, but it wasn't raining.

Martin:

Okay. You don't see so many muddy pitches anymore, but you used to play on muddy pitches. You could hardly move. You were like stuck in, four inches of mud. So yeah, you, your agility, your ability to move and footwork and all that sort of stuff, you need to work on that, right? Because the big guys need to do that too. and then probably strength work as well. not naturally, hugely built. So I had to work on that as well when I was, because you need to be, every rugby player needs to be an all rounder, it's a game where everyone does everything. so you have to work on everything. but I enjoyed it. I enjoyed, fitness work. I enjoyed the training. I enjoyed trying to get better, which was okay.

Arthur:

And when you talk about strength work, what kind of exercises did you do?

Martin:

just in the gym,'cause it, nowadays there's gyms everywhere, right? Everywhere's got a gym. there wasn't many gyms when I was young. There really wasn't. There just wasn't. weight training wasn't a big thing. So we didn't really start doing it properly till our twenties when the game went professional. now everyone's in the gym can go on. The internet and get all this advice and advice about food and all the rest of it. It wasn't around when I was a kid, so it was all new. So what sort of exercises? I think, the big strong exercises were all good. doing squats and deadlifts and all those things to make you strong. They, were, I wouldn't say I always enjoyed doing those, to be honest. But you had, to do it right. And they were hard. So when I retired, I thought. I don't have to do any more dead lifts. That's all right. but yeah, you got to do all that. and, just because when you're out on the field right, you don't want to be, at the end of the game feeling weak and all those things. So you've got to do all that work. So, you can play for 80 minutes.'cause we all used to play for 80 minutes. There was no, wasn't many tactical subs. And even when I started playing, you couldn't go off unless you were injured. Did you know that?

Arthur:

No, I did not.

Martin:

No. Do you know they make all these tactical subs now? you couldn't leave the field unless a doctor said you were in that much pain. You had to leave the field so there was no tactical subs, so everyone played 80 minutes, so you had to go through the full game. There was no going off after 55 minutes waving at the crowd. so yeah. Yeah, work. You have to work hard at all aspects of your fitness, your endurance speed. There was no point working at my speed, Arthur. it was beyond help, so I just had to make sure I was fit so I could keep going. For the full 80,

Arthur:

So was there no pom squad?

Martin:

no, no pom squad. no, no one knew what in, those days. Some guys sat on the bench. 30 test matches and never got on. Can you believe it? They never got on, so they never got their cap. Like now people get on for 10 minutes, 20 minutes, half an hour, whatever, all the time. Some guys would turn up week in, week out for England and they'd just sit on the bench and never get on. So yeah, it was different.

Arthur:

And who would you say is the best player you've played with or against?

Martin:

that's so difficult in rugby, right? Who's the best player? What was it? Do you play a position, Arthur? I play fly half. Ah, of course you do. Of course you do. So you need a good fly half, right? We talked about George Ford and you need a good scrum half, but you need a good everything. What don't you do on a rugby field, Arthur?

Arthur:

Probably getting the scrum.

Martin:

getting in the scrum, getting a lineout, getting many rucks. Yeah. So you need someone to do all that, don't you? So you can have the ball and look cool. So how do you judge a prop forward against a winger against a fly half as who's the best player. It's difficult. Isn't that,

Arthur:

It is,

Martin:

because they all do different jobs. So I played with some great players. I played with Johnny Wilkinson, I played with Rory Underwood, who's score, I think he's still got the record england tries, has he still got the record? I'm not sure.

Arthur:

I think so. I think has.

Martin:

yeah. I played with a number eight called Dean Richards. Who was a massive guy, little bit of a belly. It didn't, couldn't run very quick, but if he got hold of you, Arthur, it was all over. So he was a brilliant player, but he enabled other players to play if he'd win the ball and he'd get the ball to people who could run with it like Rory or like you who could pass it, and all those things. So it's hard to judge who's the best player. I played against a guy called Jonah Lomu. Have you heard of him?

Arthur:

I have indeed.

Martin:

He was freakishly quick and big and strong. He had agility could run very quick. So that was very difficult. I never got anywhere near him he scored some big tries against us so he could change a big game, he could change a test match just by himself. And there's not many people can really do that. A few very good players. So he'd be up there. But I, really struggled to say the best player because I also love the guys. Who aren't the most naturally talented guys, right? So what do they have to do if you're not the most na, naturally talented guy? And I'm probably one of them, to be honest.

Arthur:

Work

Martin:

do you have to do? Work harder, Arthur, you go in the scrums, arthur, go in the rucks. Go in the mauls, get stuck in, throw your body in there. Win a line out. Chase a kickoff. Yeah, so I like those guys too, who just worked hard, and just got stuck in, and when things were tough, what did they do when things were tough?

Arthur:

Deep dig deep.

Martin:

Dig deep and work harder, man, that's all you can do, isn't it? Yeah. I like those guys too. And there's loads of those guys, so they're all good guys, right? So I, never pick anyone out because I play with so many good people.

Arthur:

Thank you. And what would you say makes a great captain?

Martin:

Having a good team, it's easiest answer, seriously. If you have a good team, they're all gonna play well. They know what they're doing. They think about what they're doing. They train well, they prepare well. They're committed. It's all right, isn't it? If you've got four, if you've got, are you playing 15-a-side yet or are you playing? Yeah.

Arthur:

I think we do that next year, 13-a-side or 14.

Martin:

Yeah. So if you've got, if you've got 13 of those or 15 of those, or whatever the numbers are, you could be okay, aren't you? Because everyone wants to win. Everyone's, doing their job. Everyone's talking to everyone communicating. This is what we need to do. I need this, I need that, whatever it is. So you have a good team, you're a good captain. It's hard if you're not, you haven't got a good team. Doesn't matter how good a captain you are. Yeah. you've got to set an example. there's times when you'll make decisions and you get some right. And you'll get some wrong like everyone else. But yeah. Play well. Have a good team with you. That's the biggest thing. Yeah. and just generally setting a good example, right? If you want to be this team. And you have to set the example. We're trying to win. We want to work hard, we want to do this is what we're gonna do. I think people think captains, they can be inspiring. Of course they can, all, your players need to be inspiring, right? You need to look at guys who don't say anything and you think, wow, what a good player. I'm glad I'm playing with him. And I was lucky most of the time when I played, I had 14 guys and hopefully they thought the same about me. I had 14 guys who think, yeah, I'm glad I'm playing with this guy'cause we're gonna need it today'cause we're playing someone good

Arthur:

Speaking of teams as a second row, which position on the rugby pitch would you say you rely on the most?

Martin:

Yeah, rely on props. Haven't got good props, Arthur, it's all over. if you, might be the best 10. You might be the best number 10. Yeah. In your town, your county, your region, your country, the world. But if your scrums going backwards, yeah, you're not getting any line out lifts. It's hard work, man. So I think front row forwards, hookers prop. They always man of the match for me.'cause they've got to do the real hard work. Second row is hard work, but not compared to front row, front rows where the where the grafters live, man. So yeah, you need, you got good prop forwards. gives you a foundation

Arthur:

That's what David Flatman said

Martin:

Course he did. Did he say he was a good prop forward though?

Arthur:

he did not.

Martin:

He is. He was. He was. I'll give him that.

Arthur:

You captained at Club, International and Lions level, is there a difference between them and what did you find most challenging?

Martin:

yes and no. There's a difference because obviously with a club team it's every day really. When the professional, when you're a professional anyway, so you are in, there. The lions is, very special'cause it's very, but it's very short. but yeah, the challenges the same. You want the team to perform. you're trying to win games. The intensity increases. I, did I see you interview Charlie Hodgson?

Arthur:

Yes, I did.

Martin:

That was you, wasn't it? And I caught what there's a clip came out and Charlie was saying about just everything gets more intense as you go up the levels and all that. And he's absolutely right. So it's the same for everything. Everything just gets magnified. So it's just the same jobs. It's more intense, but less of it, less lions, less international than more club. But it's, yeah, it's similar, but of course different. And then those teams will work a little bit differently. There's different people in them. They'll have different ways of doing things or whatever that is on and off the field. But it's all cool'cause because being different is, okay. It just gives you a change, right? You just have to adapt to it. It's fine. But yeah, it's all good. But again, same thing. Same thing counts, right? It's you need good people.. Good people, first, good players, but off you go,

Arthur:

And what would you say would makes it harder?

Martin:

The, lions, is different because you've all got to come together very quickly. So you all play for different clubs and different teams, different countries. So you've all got together and you haven't got a lot of time to get ready. Nowadays, everyone does so much preparation that they, used to weeks together before they play. So you haven't got a lot of time with the lions. In England it's harder'cause you're playing international teams as well, right? you're playing the top teams in the world, you're playing the All Blacks and the spring box and all the rest of it. but also it's easier because you've got better players. So both, it's but for most things it's good and bad. Not, it's not bad, but it's just different. there's, positives, negatives, People will often say, I dunno if you've heard it, that when you play at the higher level, in a way it's actually easier because you're playing with good people. You are playing with good people and they know what they're doing. So as long as you can handle the pace of it and the intensity of it, you just need to do your job. And there is some truth in that. There is some truth in that. So that, like I said, that England team we had by. 2002, 3. Everyone knew their job. Everyone's doing their job. So really you just turn up and, do your job and nine times out of 10 we win the game. So in a way, captaining, a team like that is relatively easy to captaining a young, inexperienced team where you've got guys who a little bit unsure, a little bit new to it. yeah, it's always, it's never, a black and white answer really with all that. It's, yes and no most of the answers. that make sense or is that complete gobbledygook?

Arthur:

No, that makes sense. That's what David Flatman said as well.

Martin:

Oh, I'm, agreeing with David Flatman. I need to check after.

Arthur:

And what's harder being a coach, being a captain or a coach?

Martin:

to be a coach.'cause you don't get to play. You don't get to play. So coaching's harder. I try and I tried to coach, I coach my boys team for a couple of years. Coaching young boys is quite hard, right?'cause some of them don't listen, do they? Some of'em don't listen, don't want to listen. Don't care to listen to you. So coaching's harder because it's. It, you're not on the field. You've got to try and, educate, motivate, all these sort of things, which is more difficult, right? It's easy, it's easier to run up there as captain say, come on boys, let's crack on and get stuck in, and off you go.

Arthur:

Thank you. And how did you deal with the media and fans judging you?

Martin:

I just didn't really care about'em. I thought too much. Don't worry about'em. It's a different, I didn't play with as much media as now with social media. We had plenty of media, but it was different. And there wasn't as much internet. The internet wasn't as big. I sound really old. so everything's instant now. Social media, blah, blah, blah. We didn't have, we didn't have the camera phone thing straight after the game, so we didn't have as much of it. But yeah, look, it could annoy you. I think I always, good advice, I always think is, look, when they, tell you're great,

Arthur:

Jealous.

Martin:

a pinch of salt. When they tell you're rubbish, take it with a pinch of salt. Judge. Judge yourself. Really, you know when you've done right, wrong, good, bad judge yourself. You don't really need, you don't need to look at the paper or what, your phone now to get yourself,'cause there's enough people out there. Anyone can say anything nowadays and get it. you can go on YouTube or go on whatever and say whatever you want doesn't make it valid. So you've just got to really stick to your, stick to your guns and, judge yourself. And, listen to the people you trust, right? Your coaches and your teammates and those sort of things. That makes sense.

Arthur:

It does. It does.

Martin:

Okay.

Arthur:

And were there any mantras you lived by as a player?

Martin:

Any.

Arthur:

Mantras.

Martin:

Mantras. Wow. probably, but I didn't really think of them like that. I guess all that stuff we talked about work hard, train hard, be committed, get stuck in, don't back down, be there, all that, good stuff that we like about rugby. So do those ones, don't, don't do the opposite of that. Try and do those ones. But I guess it just becomes what you do and what you try to do. don't always get it right. Don't always win, but you try.

Arthur:

Thank you. And what's the biggest life lesson rugby has taught you that you still use today?

Martin:

That's a good question, man. that is good. Yeah. Because rugby is about life lessons, isn't it? You try and tell people that. Yeah. and you get told that when you are young and you what does that mean? But then you find out actually it's all true. Yeah. life's, you'll get out of it what you put into it generally. enthusiasm, be enthusiastic about trying to do something will get you a long way. Work hard, all that, all those bits and bobs, all those things, they're, all true. Doesn't always happen immediately. And, bad things will happen to you along the way. That's how you come through that, having teammates with you being a teammate for people who need it and need a bit of support at the right time. All those things, are what it's all about. And we have that in rugby. Don't we have it every day in rugby on a smaller scale when you're playing the game. You back your teammates up, then it might be something on a Biggar scale, right? It might be a life issue. If you, one of your teammates and he needs a bit support, needs a bit of help, needs some mates, he might just need his mind taking off something and a laugh, right? You are always laughing, aren't you? You are always got a smile your face. when you play rugby people, it's got quite serious now. Everyone's very serious. We are always having, we were always having fun When you play, right? When you play and train, you are always having fun, aren't you? You try and find the funny things in it. And you sit there at the end of the game and you laugh about some funny things that happened, right? Don't you?

Arthur:

Yeah.

Martin:

said, maybe someone said something a bit silly that was funny. At the time you couldn't laugh'cause it was a serious moment. And afterwards you go, ha. You remember him saying that? And you all giggle? Yeah. It's the same at the top level. You sit there after an England game and have a, hopefully you've won and you can just sit there and have a bit of a laugh. someone got run, ran over by someone or whatever it was, you could joke about it and take the mick out of each other in a nice way. All those good things, right? And they take the, pressure off and they make it fun to be around people.

Arthur:

Thank you, and what are you most proud of in your rugby career?

Martin:

Oh, crikey. Another good one. Good question. I've never been asking of these.

Arthur:

Thank you.

Martin:

I suppose you can answer that with, oh, I won this and that, and but I was lucky to play in good teams. I was, I, at the time I knew it and I know it even more now. I was with good teams. I played against loads of good players out there who weren't lucky enough to be in great club teams or international teams, and they might win 20%, 30% of their games, or te, whatever that was. And that's hard. You are, that's hard work. I'm probably more proud of, I, played for a long time. I think I always gave my best, I always, gave my best. didn't always come out right. didn't always play as well as you want to play, but I thought I always, I never came off a, game thinking I could have tried a lot, harder. I always tried my best.

Arthur:

That's very helpful. Thank you. And last question, who of your rugby mates you think would be a great guest On my podcast

Martin:

oh, all of them. Any of my rugby mates would be a great guest on your podcast! Who have you had on?

Arthur:

I've had, Richard Hill, which was good Dan Biggar, Ollie Lawrence, Freddie Steward, which is cool. Sir Clive Woodward, steve Borthwick, thank you.

Martin:

list of people you've had on there, but there's, loads of other good people you can have. Someone like Will Greenwood would be good. all of them would be good because they've all got a different story to tell. who else did I play with? Jonny, you never get Jonny Wilko on your podcast.

Arthur:

I think Dan Biggar said he'll connect me to, which is very

Martin:

Are you gonna get Wilko on if you get Wilko on, if you get Jonny Wilko on, I'll have to buy your pint when you're 18. or a Coke beforehand. Or what do, or whatever you have. yeah, they're all good'cause they've all got, Did you have flat, you have Dave Flatman on.

Arthur:

Yes.

Martin:

Yeah. You all, they're all good. They've all got a story to tell. just, just do it in different ways. Yeah. All those, guys Crikey, Jason Robinson, he's, he, they're all interesting. Got different, tales to tell. These are all old guys, right? They, they, finished playing before you were born. Probably most of them. Yeah, so any of those guys, they're, all, interesting. Arthur, they've all got good stories.

Arthur:

Thank you. I'm actually interviewing Will Greenwood soon, which should be good.

Martin:

You've got Greenwood on.

Arthur:

Yes.

Martin:

He's a very, smart rugby player. very bright rugby player. Yeah, he'll be good. who else? Oh, crikey. from Leicester, who could you have on? Austin Healy played for Leicester. Lewis Moody could have Lewis on.

Arthur:

I've already had actually on, as well.

Martin:

you have, you've had Lewis on?

Arthur:

Yeah, I got him just, I got him a week before his diagnosis, which is very

Martin:

Yeah. Okay. he could still come on now. I played, with a prop forward called Darren Garforth. He was a top man. He was the king of get stuck in, but I'm not sure he can, he could get online and get on through onto your podcast. That's, harsh. I'm joking. He'd be a good guy.'cause he's old school as well. He's old school, but he's a big scary looking dude. Big beard.

Arthur:

Thank you so much, Martin. I really appreciate taking your time to be on podcast. Thank you.

Martin:

What's, your favourite thing about rugby? Let me ask you a question before we go.

Arthur:

My favourite thing is probably, I quite like just the, social side of everything, like the match tea's, the, like the minute before a game. The team huddle before a game. I love that, really.

Martin:

No, that's, a great answer because you're totally right as well. Because Rugby's a social game. Yeah. So before the game, after the game, having a bit of dinner, all that stuff, having a laugh, that's what people remember. So when you see your mates and you'll see your mates, this is classic rugby chat. You'll see your mates that you play rugby with at school. Yeah. As you go through school, if you go to university or play club rugby, do you play club rugby as well, or just school?

Arthur:

I play club as well.

Martin:

Yeah, so you'll see those guys at various points in your life, at weird times, right? Sometimes they'll be predictable at rugby events or whatever. Other times they'll just be weird times, and you'll, see someone could be anywhere at the station walking down the street and they'll go, Hey, and you'll go, hey mate, right? Yeah. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you'll talk about some of the things he did. and some of it'll be rugby actually playing and a lot of it will be not playing. It'll be things you did round the game and all the fun you had. That's what you'll remember. Like I said at the start, I still see my mates that I played rugby with, with the Lions, with England, with Leicester, with my junior club. And we just have the same conversations. They're all the same conversations. They're just different games. So some of those games people remember'cause they were England games. Some of the games no one remembers because they were from my club when I was 14. But we remember it and we'll go, oh, do you remember that? And we have a laugh. And that's what rugby's all about. That's what you'll remember. That's what you'll remember, mate. so yeah. Good. You've ans you've better, than me. These answers, man. Interview yourself. You interview yourself, Arthur.

Arthur:

Thank you Martin.