Rugby Legends with Arthur Dickins

Charlie Hodgson: The Thinking Game of Playing Fly Half

• Arthur Dickins • Season 1 • Episode 12

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Charlie Hodgson joins Arthur to share the real thinking game behind playing fly half at the highest level. From being a nervous nine year old who would not get out of the car, to becoming the Premiership’s all time leading points scorer, Charlie talks through the lessons that shaped him.

He explains how confidence grows, how to bounce back after bad games, and why watching full matches matters far more than highlight reels. He also breaks down goal kicking routines, defensive struggles, and what it felt like competing with Jonny Wilkinson for the England ten shirt. Young players will learn simple ideas they can use straight away in their own rugby.

Charlie also talks honestly about injuries, pressure, expectation and how he learned to trust his own style instead of copying others. His stories give a real look into the mindset needed to enjoy rugby, improve week by week, and deal with mistakes with much less fear.

If you want clear advice from one of the smartest tens in English rugby, this episode is full of gold.

Speaker:

Hi everyone, I'm Arthur Dickins and this is my Rugby Legends podcast. In each episode, I interview an amazing rugby player or coach to get the insight and advice for young rugby players just like me, who are keen to learn and get better. In this episode, I'm speaking with Charlie Hodgson, ex England, Sale and Saracens Fly half and the leading premiership point scorer of all time. Charlie is a Sale legend making 220 appearances for the club and being voted Sale sharks player of the season three times. Over his career with sale and then Saracens. He's won three premiership titles as well as one European cup. Charlie was also capped 38 times for England and went on the 2005 Lions tour. I hope you find Charlie's knowledge and wisdom has helpful as I did, enjoy.

Arthur:

Firstly, Charlie, I just want to say thank you very much for taking the time to be on our podcast.

Charlie:

It's a pleasure. It's good to, it's good to be here. I've seen, a few clips of your recent podcast and, it's nice to be asked to be a guest, so thanks for having me, Arthur.

Arthur:

Thank you. And firstly, Charlie, I saw you at St. Joseph's, last week and it was very good. What'd you think of the tournament?

Charlie:

I absolutely love that tournament. do you know, I played there as a teenager all of those years ago, so that tournament's been going for a long time. and yeah, it's just, it seems to be getting better each year. It's the first time I've been back since I played there, so it's obviously a while. But I, I love that tournament. I love the format. I love how competitive it is. I love, yeah, just these, the, younger generation showing what they can do'cause there's some really skillful players out there. It was awesome. Did you enjoy it?

Arthur:

I loved it. It's one of my favorite two days ever.

Charlie:

Good. Good. I'm glad. Well, you, clearly made an impact'cause it's looked like you're doing some commentary as well.

Arthur:

So firstly, Charlie, how did you get into rugby and how old are you when you started?

Charlie:

I was nine years old. I was invited to my local rugby club. It was one of my dad's friends actually recommended it to me. My dad took me up on a Sunday morning to the Old Brodleians in Halifax, in Yorkshire. Do you know what happened? I didn't get out the car. I got there and I was scared. I didn't want to, didn't want to get out the car. So my dad, my dad drove me home. I didn't do anything. So he took, he drove me home. Then the following week we went back, I said, no, all right, I'll do it again. So we went back and I sat in the car again and my dad was like, nah, this time you're getting out. So he dragged me out and threw me onto the field and I ended up playing a game, for the opposition that day. I was quite small and chunky, so I was played at prop in my first ever game, I had no idea what I was doing. but I stepped a few people and enjoyed having the ball in my hands. And that was it. That was the start of my journey. And from then on, it was every Sunday at the Brods, until I, until rugby became a bit more serious when I was at secondary school. But, yeah, it all started for me there in the cold weather of Yorkshire.

Arthur:

what other sports did you play growing up and at what age did you give him up for rugby?

Charlie:

I don't think I really played anything officially. I didn't necessarily join any other clubs as a youngster. But what I did do is I just explored everything. So, I suppose I played cricket in the summer for a club, but actually, like with my friends, I'd play tennis. I play football all the time in the playground at school. obviously I'd play rugby. I just, I'd explore anything, any opportunity to play sport. I was outside, I was on my bike. Like, I was very rarely inside in front of the tv. I was always outside trying to explore, trying to do something. even climbing like we used to live, we called it the rocks. But yeah, just some, there were some quite small boulders really, but they were a good opportunity to climb as well. So lots of different things as a kid. when did I really start to specialise? probably say when I was certainly through the winter, probably when I was about 14 or 15, maybe 15. And part of that was just because the way the game started to change physically, I couldn't get two games in a weekend. So it was rugby for me through the winter.

Arthur:

And in cricket were you a batsman or bowler?

Charlie:

I was actually a wicket keeper and a batsman. So, yeah, I wouldn't necessarily say I was great at either, but, no, I did all right. I did all right. I hit a few, a couple of good innings, but nothing, nothing really to shout about. I got to the point where I think my timing was all off. I was getting hit. I was just like, I'm getting smack by the ball too much here. Maybe it's'cause I'm, slowing down and everybody else is speeding up. So, yeah, I decided to move away from cricket when I was about 15. I played tennis a lot more through the summer. but yeah, it was, yeah, like I said, any, sport was good for me. I enjoyed it.

Arthur:

Thank you. And what element of playing Fly-Half did you have to work on the most?

Charlie:

the biggest thing I think is defense actually. some of the, some of the elements of game of the Game actually came quite naturally to me. but defense was always one of those that was difficult. I was always small as a youngster. I got injured as a youngster. I did my shoulders when I was 14, 15, so I lost a little bit of confidence there. and so it was always one of those things that I knew I always needed to, always had to focus on. And then of course, when you become a professional, you've got these big guys who are playing 12 and 13 and the back row running at you. So you, so it was always one of those where it was a constant work on positioning. just the tackle technique itself. Lots of different things going on. sometimes it was good, sometimes it was bad. But on the whole, yeah, that was, the main thing as that's what I had to work on.

Arthur:

And, talking about injuries there, what was the worst injury that you had?

Charlie:

do you know what I've had a lot of injuries. I had a lot of injuries. From being a teenager right the way through my professional career. So I don't necessarily think any one of them is worse than the other. I've had two long-term knee injuries doing my acls. both did when I was playing for England, in terms of pain, the worst pain I had was fractured, I fractured my cheek, clashed heads with somebody in a match and fractured my cheek and then had surgery. that was, pretty bad pain. That was awful.

Arthur:

What's one piece of advice you'd give to an aspiring Fly-Half?

Charlie:

So you'll probably be able to understand this, is that you will sit and watch highlight reels like you wouldn't believe. Correct.

Arthur:

Yes.

Charlie:

So the one thing that lots of the younger generation don't do is sit and watch full games. Right. And I think as an aspiring fly half, you really need to understand the context of a game, and you really need to understand how games unfold. And that's in terms of, the momentum in games and the momentum shifts, decisions that are made. And the only way you get that is by watching full games. And so I think for me, in terms of advice for young aspiring fly-halfs I would say sit and watch games right the way through. Even if you record them and watch them again. And you can stop things. Well, obviously you can still, you can stop it now, can't you? But you can go back and you can reflect and you can start to sort of question why decisions were made. When you have no context and when you're just purely looking at a highlight reel, it looks amazing and it's great. But actually in terms of as a fly half when you really have to understand the decisions that you make and why you might make them, you really need to sit and watch. I used to watch, like when I grew up, I used to watch Rugby League all the time, right? And I used to sit at the end of the field, and I know they're different games, but I used to sit at the end of the field. It was almost like I was watching a game of. Chess, right. And I used to just watch what was going on, watch what was happening in the back field, and watch the decisions that the team were making and the certain players were making. And I think for me, that was really quite nice grounding in terms of what I wanted to do and what I, how I wanted to approach the game. It became a bit more about the strategy as opposed to just doing something that was really, cool. and so that was kind of where I got my understanding from.

Arthur:

Next time I see England play, I'll record the game and do that.

Charlie:

you should do. you certainly learn a lot more. Definitely if you, if you sit and go through it. Gareth Steenson the same. You're talking about being ex Exeter chiefs, ex-player there. I spoke to him only a couple of weeks ago and, we talked about this exact thing. It's like, because players need context, you need to understand what you're looking at. And I think I highlight reel is brilliant. But, understanding it in more detail is much better.

Arthur:

Exactly. Thank you. And were there any mantras that you lived by?

Charlie:

the main mantras actually for me were, around goal kicking. So, in what it is the only, well, one of the only individual skills within a team sport, and so that can, it can feel quite lonely at times. And so I, my mantra. Were my own individual mantras. I used to tell myself every single time I had a kick. So every time I stood there looking at the ball and looking at the posts, I'd say to myself, big chest, stand tall and hit through. and that those, and I take a deep breath. And those, things that I would say to myself would be, would, be every single time both in training and also in, in matches. funny really'cause like when you talk about taking a deep breath and staying tall, it, You could take that into life in general actually, rather than just goal kicking. But, it was certainly something that, that I used and needed to use.

Arthur:

How did you bounce back after a bad game?

Charlie:

I suppose there are a number of things really. Sometimes when we're emotional and we reflect, we think of the worst case scenarios. So the biggest thing that you can do, or certain, certainly things that I did were firstly watch the video, was what I was thinking in line with what actually happened.'cause more often than not, it's a million times worse than your head, than actually what happened on the field. Right? So that's the first thing, making sure I'm actually dealing with fact. And then, actually just reflecting on, on, on those performances, going, okay, well what actually, what did I do? Well.'cause that's really important. You need to still think about what went well. Even if, you had a, what you perceive to be a poor game, you still have to think about the good things. but then it was also a case of if things that didn't go well, how do I make them better? What do I actually need to do that's going to make me better? And that's what I'll focus on this week, going to the game next week. So, the emotional side was hard at first, but I think over a matter, through like, sort of through a matter of time, it was just more a case of, Being quite sensible in my approach to it and, really reflecting on whether something was actually as bad as I thought it was.'cause chances are it wasn't.

Arthur:

That's very helpful. Thank you. What's it like doing sport as a job? Does your enjoyment change?

Charlie:

I don't know, actually. Sometimes it does. Sometimes it does. But I think on the whole, I would've played rugby as a hobby, right? So I was just very fortunate that I happened to be doing my hobby and getting paid at the same time. So, so does it ruin enjoyment? Sometimes it does, but I think that enjoyment only becomes because you're really competitive and you want to win all the time, and then it just kind of, it deflates you a little bit. but in terms of the enjoyment, like the fact that I could go to work or what I, what was work every day and basically I was just like throwing a ball around my mates and it was, Yeah, it was like I hadn't grown up. I was just a kid the whole time, just like running around and having a great time outside. And that's like, what an amazing thing to do and to say I've done. So I'm, yes, the enjoyment disappeared because of'cause of performance at times. But actually on the, grand scheme of things, I was very lucky and very privileged and fortunate to, to have done what I've done. So I, yeah, I, enjoy, I enjoyed it and I took the most out of it as much as I could.

Arthur:

How did the level step up between club and country?

Charlie:

This was a big shift actually. and it always changed every single time I played, even from playing club level, premiership level to European Cup to then international. There was always a shift in, intensity and physicality. Sometimes you could get away with making mistakes in premiership matches, and the team around you would fix the problem. Whereas internationally, if you made a make a mistake, it's heightened and the team that you're playing against will probably end up scoring. So, and particularly in the position that I played in as a fly half, the scrutiny around that position is always quite high, you, are the person that's making the decisions. You tend to be the person that goal kicks. So there's lots going on. I was talking about this the other day actually with Toby Flood on a different podcast, but he was saying like in France, it's the scrum half that they focus on. But actually in England, we tend to focus on the fly half and what he does, so if a, let's say for example, a prop makes a mistake, then the, the repercussions aren't as great. People are a bit like, oh, well he's a prop, right? He's, expected to make that, well, not expected to make that mistake, but he does. Whereas if it's a fly, half things are seen to be in a different light, for some reason. and so that intensity from I say from club level to international is, huge. then when you've got somebody like Jonny Wilkinson, you're competing against and everybody thinks that Jonny's awesome, which of course he is and was. Then you're also battling that comparison with people. So, yeah, it was, I, found it really hard, I must admit, going from premiership, club level to international. I did find it harder. I certainly would never say that was easy because some players, take to it like a duck to water. They are, they, settle into international rugby. Like it's always been, something they've, set out to do. But for me it was a bit of a rollercoaster. Some days it was good, some days it was pretty bad. and so, yeah, so I, I found the intensity pretty hard, but I think that's just the level of pressure that you have when you go up. It's, you're playing in front of more people. there's more at stake. yeah, the, yeah, the stakes are higher, so it's understandable really.

Arthur:

As a fly half, what would position on the pitch do you rely on the most?

Charlie:

Anybody in the forwards. Right? I, I'm a big believer in that you win games while your forward pack win your games. Right. And, I don't think that'll ever change. and so my, the biggest sort of compliment, respect I would ever pay to anybody is those people that play in the forwards.'cause those guys really, they're the ones that do the hard work. Right. They make my job much easier if they do their job well. Right. And that's, and they do some stuff that actually they put their heads in places that I quite frankly wouldn't want to put my head right. And so they are incredible people. from 1 to 8, anybody who does that job, I have the utmost respect for, because, they're hard as nails, they work incredibly hard and they make myself, look better, and of course to make the guys on the edge look even better because they get to score the tries. So, yeah, huge respect for those guys up front. always be very grateful for what they did for me in my career.

Arthur:

That's what David Flatman said.

Charlie:

David Flatman said that, well, he would say that he's a prop. would say that, but No, I get it. I get it. Yeah, he's, yeah, he's, he, those guys that have to be in the front row, I mean. I, think, I dunno how they do it, I genuinely dunno how they do it to have all that force going through them, in, from in front and also from behind. It's, just incredible what they have to go through. So I, yeah, utmost respect for what they do. and as I say, certainly made my job a little bit easier when they did it well.

Arthur:

Thank you. When you were in the part of the England squad, how did you handle competing for your position?

Charlie:

At first I found it quite hard actually. So I mentioned Jonny Wilkinson before Jonny was, like an amazing player and also his work ethic was just like you wouldn't believe. And so he would often stay outside after training at the end of sessions and he'd spend a couple of hours doing his extras on his kicking and his tackling and everything. I mean, like, you wouldn't, sometimes you wouldn't believe it. And at the first I tried to keep up with him. I tried to stay out with him as long as I could. But then what that, what then tended to happen was that I would just get more and more tired. I get more and more frustrated. it just didn't, it didn't suit me. because ultimately I think what I was trying to be somebody that I wasn't, And I think over time I then start to realise, actually I'm not going to be Jonny. Jonny brings an element to the game of things to the game that, that I really can only dream of, certainly in terms of the defensive side. So actually, I had to sort of step away from that and really focus on the things that I was good at and the things that I really focused on. If I was being selected or not selected, it was either, obviously if I being not selected for something, it was because, yes, there was a piece missing in my game, but also I might not have just been that player for that way of playing for that game plan. So, I was very, sort of, had perspective on it and just chose to look at it from my own perspective and thinking, well, what is it that I bring to this team? why am I different? to, to Jonny. And so I'm not going to compare myself to Jonny. I'm just going to, I'm going to be me, I'm going to be Charlie, and I'm going to do whatever I can to be the best player that I can be.

Arthur:

How does it feel playing in a packed out international Twickenham one week and then a club match at your home ground the next?.

Charlie:

it is actually not bad, to be honest. It's not as bad as people might think. sometimes I think people. there's a little bit of a come down. I'll tell you what, right at the very beginning of my career. So there used to be this thing where, I could sit on the bench for England on a Saturday and if the club had a game on the Sunday,'cause obviously the way the fixtures fell. So if at the time when sale had a fixture on the Sunday, if I didn't get on, I played less than 10 minutes or something for England on Saturday, I could go and join the hotel with Sale, go and go and join the team with Sale and I could play the fixture on the Sunday for Sale. So having not had a whole week of preparation and being built up to play for England, I could 24 hours later could be on the field with Sale. and that was really, that was crazy because actually mentally you're just all over the place. Like I've built myself up to, to play in an international. You have this rollercoaster of emotion through a game.'cause you're thinking, I'm going to go on, am I not going to go on? Is he injured? Is he not injured? So, and then you do eventually get on and you have 10 minutes, which, which is not enough really, physically, and so you're still fresh. And so the club's like, well, we'd, we want you back. And so we, used to go back and play these games, but actually, trying to forget all the calls that I've been working on through the week and then suddenly remember everything that I would, I knew already, but suddenly having a shift in mindset in terms of remembering everything else that was really difficult. I must admit sometimes it didn't go, it didn't go to plan because, because I found it because it is understandably really, hard. but in terms of like nowadays and, going back, I think it's, there's an element of going back to the club where. You, you have much deeper, solid friendships. I think it might be different for the England guys now, but certainly in my time, much deeper friendships with people at the club. And it's the place that, you know, and it's like, it's like going home. So actually didn't really make any difference in me. I enjoyed going back. I enjoyed representing my clubs that I played for. And, and it was, yeah, it was always nice to do at the end of what I, what was, what could have been or what was a tough, period.

Arthur:

Would you miss most about playing rugby?

Charlie:

I'm not sure whether you've asked this question to everybody else that you've interviewed, but but the overriding answer I think from everybody would be, it's the camaraderie that you get from being with the players, and it's not necessarily being on the field. It's about being in the, for me, it was always about being in the change rooms afterwards, so. Whether we had won or whether we'd lost a match, the sort of 30, 40 minutes after a game, that, for me was some of the most precious times that I could have had. And I think that was just a case of, that shared experience. We'd all worked really hard for each other. we'd, done what we'd set out to do on the field. and there's like a little bit of exhaustion in there, but, just. Just, yeah, it was just that shared experience. And I think that's the thing that I miss most. it's the, craic between the, players. I don't miss getting my head kicked in, honestly. I don't miss that. Like, I got my, I got beaten up a lot. so I don't miss, I certainly don't miss that. But what I do miss is being around, the changing room and being around the players,'cause that, those were fun. Those were fun bits. Not necessarily even just after, after games, although they were really special, just the day to day stupidity that comes out from people at times is like, that's you, can't replicate that at all.

Arthur:

what Leon Lloyd said, he said was the 10 seconds before you go to play in the changing room.

Charlie:

Yeah. So that 10 seconds before that's, That's when you, your emotions are, running high, aren't they? And you're just about, you're ready to go, but you've, you know that you've done everything you can in preparation and you just want to get out there in the field. So, but yeah, certainly agree with him in that. And obviously, like he said it, with being with your mates. That's the, best thing about it.

Arthur:

Who in your opinion is the best fly-half to have played the game?

Charlie:

this is also really difficult. This is a really difficult question to answer because of course, if you go back to the 1980s, 1970s of something to tell you that the Welsh legends are, were the best players, but actually the, it's, it's all relative, right? And so I'm going to go on what, are my era, I suppose, and the person that I think is the best, and that's Dan Carter. He was a type of player that could, he could do everything. He could really do everything, but he made the game look really easy. He, it was, there were often times when it looked like he just had so much time on the ball. He could take his time making a decision. He could hand somebody off and go through a gap and offload. And, yeah, he just made fly-halfs. Jonny was an incredible player, but I think Dan Carter just took it to the next level. In terms of everything that he offered on the field. So, I mean, it helped playing the for All Blacks as well, and he was surrounded by incredible players. But that's not to say he wasn't a fantastic player himself.

Arthur:

Yeah, I see little clippets of him on social media. He looks very good.

Charlie:

Yeah, he was incredible. Yeah. Just, yeah, like I say, he, a blessed player that, say blessed because of ability and talent. I have no doubt that he would've worked incredibly hard at his game. In terms of analysis, in terms of his physical preparation and his skill preparation. you don't, become a player like that by not working hard. But, he's, he's certainly set the standard and certainly somebody that I enjoyed playing against and certainly enjoyed watching.

Arthur:

And what did you do to prepare for a match?

Charlie:

The biggest preparation for me actually was just around, around the kicking side and the goal kicking side. I always needed to feel like a, just in that last little bit of preparation. So, Jason Robinson once said to me, don't have any superstitions because they give you an excuse if you lose. Right. So that was, that kind of stuck with me from a very young age. so I didn't have any superstitions, but what I did do was, make sure my last bit of preparation was good. So, get into the change rooms. I'd always get changed earlier, get out in the field. Part of that was because I didn't like the nervous energy of sitting down and waiting for it all to unfold. So I'd just get changed and get out in the field. and then, and it was just the last bits of kicking practice. So little bit of kicking out of hand, some positional stuff, some restarts into some goal kicking, which took my mind off the game. It, settled my nerves down. It just, I was doing something and so that's what I needed to do. So that was, my main bit of preparation.

Arthur:

And speaking of kicking, do you have any tips for kicking?

Charlie:

where do I start with that one? Without giving any technical advice? I'm a big believer doing what feels natural and a normal for you. there are, different ways of kicking a ball. Definitely everybody has a different style. If you're young enough and somebody comes along and says, we'd like you to change your style because it really, you'll do the X, Y, and Z one, you have to have unbelievable faith in that person that they know what they're talking about. But secondly, because we're all so different, I'm a big believer in doing what feels right for you. And it's, and then what will happen then over time is that you will start to, through practice, you'll start to work out what works, what doesn't work, how to self-correct on the field. Because ultimately it's you that's on the field that has to correct when you miss a kick. So, don't be too influenced by what you see, because there's lots out there in terms of how to stand and where to position your body, and whether you have your hands together or whatever it is. Like there's loads of stuff out there that people will follow. So one thing I would say is find your own style. Stick with your own style because that's what feels most natural. And when it, when you're feeling when it's natural to you, chances are you'll have a better success rate.

Arthur:

Thank you. I'll use that next time I'm kicking in a game.

Charlie:

Good, good. Just relax. That's the main thing.

Arthur:

who's the best coach you had?

Charlie:

I've had a number of really good coaches actually, that I've worked with. And so I dunno whether I could necessarily pinpoint one in particular that's, that's been better than another. I think they've just come at certain times in my career where they've really helped. So Right. In the early days of sale,

Arthur:

Okay.

Charlie:

Jim Mallinder and Steve Diamond were two coaches that worked really well together, and they gave me an opportunity when I was young and they trusted me. They put me in a team of experienced players, but they trusted me in that system. Working closely with Philippe Saint-André. After that, he taught me a lot about game management and game understanding, which is really helpful. And then when I joined Saracens, the coaches there, had real belief in me in terms of my game understanding. but also actually. even in terms of their trust in me defensively, though, I went through a number of years where I was told that I wasn't very good defensively, but I turned up at Saracens and they flipped it and they changed the psychology around it and told me that actually I wasn't as bad as people thought. which certainly helped. so I'd say as a coaching group at, they were also really, good, in, in the balance that they brought from attack to defense to kicking and obviously led by Mark McCall. Were, great. So yeah, really difficult to pick out anybody individually, because as I say, I've had really good experiences right the way through my career. I'm very grateful for all of those who've influenced me over time.

Arthur:

you. And can you tell us a bit about rugby buddy?

Charlie:

So Rugby Buddy is a coaching and mentoring space for young players 12 to 18, tends to be 16 being the oldest at the moment. And, but I say that I've got some students I've been chatting to recently as well. But it's a coaching and mentoring space to manage and help manage all of those challenges that you guys face. So from. Managing injuries and the psychological impact that comes from managing an injury, dealing with setbacks, making mistakes in the field, and then not taking five minutes to recover.'cause you're really emotional and upset about making a mistake. it's about managing conversations with coaches. It's about managing feedback and potential criticism from coaches or feeling like your peers are flying ahead of you and you're feeling like you're being left behind. All those sorts of questions. And I think. I recognised in my own career, managing the mental side of rugby was really quite difficult and I could have done with some help from a younger age, but also my son's part of a part of an academy pathway at the moment. And he, he's had his troubles and difficulties and challenges and I've seen some of his friends have the same sort of things. Some are sort of let go from academies and so, so it's, trying to support these, this younger generation with those challenges and basically enable them to play with more confidence and more consistency and just play with more freedom. You know what it's like when you, if you're feeling all tense, the last thing you really want to do is try something for fear of making mistake or fear of failure. So actually what I'm trying to do is equip you guys, boys and girls with the tools and techniques to manage those, but just play with a little bit of confidence and a little bit of freedom. So you enjoy what you're doing.

Arthur:

Thank you. And what sport does your son play for Academy?

Charlie:

he plays rugby. He's part of the Saracen's Pathway at the moment. so he, yeah, he's in the U18 squad. He had two games before two league games in August and the, Academy League games will kick off again after Christmas. So, who knows what will happen, who knows where it takes him? But I've certainly seen the challenges that he's had and, so just from seeing that and seeing his friends, it was a bit of inspiration to create Rugby Buddy, which is all an online coaching offering because I recognise the need to support you guys.

Arthur:

And what position does your son play?

Charlie:

He is a fly half like his dad. he's. He's been encouraged to, to play a little bit of scrum-half as well. So, yeah, exploring a number of things, but, I just want him to enjoy it. That's the main thing, like that's all I want is to, for him to get the most out of rugby, wherever that takes him, and for him to enjoy it. If he enjoys it, he plays well. So that's the main thing.

Arthur:

Exactly. And last question, who of your rugby mates do you, reckon would be a good guest on my podcast?

Charlie:

Who would you like? Who have you not spoken to? Have you spoken to many people yet? I tell you it would be good. Chris Ashton would be very good.

Arthur:

it's.

Charlie:

If you want speak to Ashy, you can. I'm sure Ashy will do that for you. he's a brilliant guest. do you want to speak to a current or do you want to speak to an ex player?

Arthur:

A current, if that's all right.

Charlie:

You want to speak to a current player? sure I can think of somebody. I can't think of anybody at the moment, but, I will. I'll find somebody for you.

Arthur:

Thank you very much, Charlie and I, really appreciate taking the time to on podcast. Thank you.

Charlie:

It's a pleasure. No problem at all.