Rugby Legends with Arthur Dickins

Lewis Moody: Tenacity, Persistence and Never Giving Up

• Lewis Moody • Season 1 • Episode 11

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Lewis Moody, also known as “Mad Dog,” joins Arthur Dickins on Rugby Legends to share stories from his journey as one of England’s fiercest flankers. From his first tackles as a five-year-old to winning the 2003 Rugby World Cup, Lewis opens up about the mindset, sacrifices, and lessons that shaped his career.

In this episode, Lewis talks about balancing multiple sports before committing fully to rugby, how an accidental position switch from centre to flanker transformed his future, and what it felt like to debut for Leicester Tigers at just 18. He also reveals the rituals he used to deal with nerves, the try celebrations that went wrong, and the challenge of facing legends like Jonah Lomu, Quade Cooper, and Richie McCaw.

Arthur digs into Lewis’s mantras on never giving up, his passion for tackling, and the intensity of competing against South Africa’s brutal packs. Lewis shares honest reflections on injuries, the wisdom he’d pass to his younger self, and what he misses most about life on the pitch.

This conversation is packed with inspiration for young players who want to learn from one of the toughest competitors in English rugby. Whether you’re a junior player dreaming of making it big or a fan who remembers Lewis’s fearless style, you’ll take away practical lessons about resilience, mindset, and enjoying the game.

Since recording this episode, Lewis has shared that he’s been diagnosed with Motor Neurone Disease (MND). True to form, he’s facing it with the same courage, honesty, and heart that defined his rugby career.

The rugby community has always been about more than just the game; it’s about standing together when it matters most.

Join us in supporting Lewis and his family here:

👉 https://gofund.me/2e36d4602

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Arthur:

Hi everyone. I'm Arthur Dickins and this is my Rugby Legends podcast. In each episode, I interview an amazing rugby player or coach to get their insight and advice for young rugby players, just like me who are keen to learn and get better. In this episode. I'm really excited to be speaking with ex England and Lions all action Flanker, Lewis Moody, also known as Mad Dog. Lewis played most of his club rugby at Leicester, where he won an incredible seven Premiership titles and two European cups between 1999 and 2010. As part of that all conquering team, Lewis was also capped 71 times by England and was part of the World Cup winning team in 2003. In fact, Lewis won the lineout in the phase of play, which led to Jonny Wilkinson's winning drop goal. I hope you find Lewis's knowledge and wisdom as helpful as I did, enjoy! Firstly Lewis, wanna say thanks. so much for being on my podcast, I really appreciate you taking your time.

Lewis:

What a pleasure, mate. And I know I've mentioned it already, but I'm loving your backdrop. It puts mine

Arthur:

Thank you very much. What I see in your backdrop, you've got a Jaguar's helmet, what?

Lewis:

Yeah. So, I was actually just watching the NFL in there. The highlights on the Eagles were playing the, Kansas City Chiefs and when I was, so I've always loved American football. My team were the bears and they've been useless basically since I first started watching them, which was 1985 and they won the Super Bowl, which is why I got into it. they've not won anything since. And I got invited to do a training session with the Jacksonville Jaguars. Like, they have this European pathway thing. And the Jags were doing this training program for sort of young and aspiring American football talent. I was, 40 at the time after I'd been retired from playing for. Nearly a decade. And they were like, do you wanna have a go? I was like, yeah, I'm in all the gear, all the pads on. I absolutely loved it. I dislocated two of my fingers. it was, if I could have been, if I could have been reincarnated, I would be reincarnated as an American football player, it was the most fun I've had. I have to admit the noise when you make a collision with helmets and pads and everything, and the best bit about it was, whereas in rugby, if I did that now. You know, I'd probably not be able to walk for a day. I'd be so stiff and sore.'cause of all the padding I did, I, didn't feel any discomfort the next day whatsoever. So, yeah, I loved it. So I'm not a Jags fan, but vicariously, because of that training session, I suppose, I suppose I do follow'em a bit.

Arthur:

That sounds fun.

Lewis:

I was Do you, do you, ever watch any American football.

Arthur:

My dad watches a bit. I used to really like it last year, but then I kind of stopped.

Lewis:

Yeah, Mahomes is pretty useful. They did a whole quarterbacks series on Netflix, which was wicked if you haven't seen it. And it was when Mahomes led them to the Super Bowl and almost ruptured his ankle ligaments and still managed to play on. And oh yeah, he was a tough nut.

Arthur:

I saw a couple highlights of it.

Lewis:

Yeah. Oh man. In all fairness, I can only really watch the highlights'cause the American football game's gone for so long,

Arthur:

I know.

Lewis:

especially the Super Bowl. But I'm sure you didn't wanna talk to me about NFL. Did you? Maybe it as a side show.

Arthur:

So firstly, Lewis, how did you get into rugby and how old were you when you started?

Lewis:

so I got into rugby. I started when I was five. So I was five years old. And I got into it because a mate of mine, I still remember his name, it was actually a friend of my mum's who brought her son over and he was really keen to go and play rugby, but he didn't have the confidence to go on his own. So he invited me and I went down and absolutely fell in love with it.'cause rugby was, full contact when I started playing at the age of five. And, you know, just throwing myself around, tackling people, getting in the mud. Oh, I absolutely loved it. And, so I stayed, got really into it. And Matt, after about half a season, decided rugby wasn't for him and, left, but, because his, name was Matt Foster. and I still keep in touch with him every now and again, but, but yeah, he, essentially got me into rugby by inviting me to come and join him.

Arthur:

What other sports did you play growing up and at what age did you give him up for rugby?

Lewis:

I played all sports, athletics. I loved cricket, I loved hockey. I didn't love, but I played it. football, we didn't play a huge amount of, but whenever there was a chance, I gave it a go. I was probably the best at rugby all the way through, but I was okay at cricket. I was like an erratic fast bowler basically. And and I was the type of enthusiastic young man that would get thrown into any athletics event.'cause I was happy to, you know, try it all. So,'cause I was relatively quick. I'd get, you know, put in a hundred, then they put me in like the 800, which was awful. But I'd still have to do it. And when I was about. 17. I remember having to make the decision between doing athletics or cricket in the summer term.'cause we were one term rugby school and I decided to do athletics'cause it'd keep me fit for the rugby season. And that was when I knew rugby was my thing.

Arthur:

Out of the athletics, what would you say was your favourite event?

Lewis:

Probably high jump and javelin.

Arthur:

What was your PB in high jump?

Lewis:

Oh, I dunno if I can remember actually. I think it was 1.50 or something like that,

Arthur:

Jeez!.

Lewis:

but it felt high at the time. When I go back and see it now, it doesn't look anything. But yeah, high jump. I enjoyed the running races as well. Like the hurdles was always quite good fun'cause there was an element of jeopardy, right?'cause you may or may not make it over the hurdle and any given point and you're quite close. So you know, there is that opportunity to. Give the person on your left or right. A little nudge as you're going over the hurdles together. but yeah, I really loved athletics and it set me up, you know, one thing I would always advocate for, so I've got two boys, 14 and 17, and they played all sports all the way through. And I just think, I remember my teachers at the time always encouraging me to do as many sports as possible and I'm glad they did. Just, I think'cause the crossover of skillset through all the different sports is so beneficial. Yeah. Anyway, I'd, always advocate for anyone that, if you're unsure, never, choose one sport too early because you never know. You know, as you grow, you change. We all, we get faster, we get bigger, we get stronger, or, you know, however we evolve. You never know what you'll be good at. So yeah, keep trying as many as possible.

Arthur:

Do any of your boys play rugby Still?

Lewis:

Yes. they both played rugby. My youngest is obsessed with rugby, so he's. Just got into the first stages of like, the pathway. So the PDG, what's that? Under fifteens at Bath, which he's super excited about. he loves it, loves tackling, super enthusiastic. And my eldest has chosen a, career in football.

Arthur:

what position does he play in football?

Lewis:

he is a goalie. Yeah, he's a little bit taller than me now. So he is 6'4". It will probably be 6'5" by the time he's finished growing. so yeah, he can fill the goal pretty easily, which is handy.

Arthur:

And what position does your youngest play in rugby?

Lewis:

I think he would say it's difficult to, you know, the age group that they're at, difficult to say what position they'll end up playing, but he would say he's a back Row.

Arthur:

Ah, you.

Lewis:

playing. Yeah, exactly. Like me. Yeah. he loves it. He loves getting stuck into the, Yeah, all the breakdown stuff, all the tackling. He just, he, loves it.

Arthur:

When did you know that flanker was your position? Was this your decision or did it come from a coach?

Lewis:

so that's a great question actually.'cause I was a, I was at centre until I was 16, 16 and a half. So my, my final year at school. So I was playing first team in lower sixth or year 12. and I loved it. I thought I was gonna make it had county trials, didn't make it into county or Midland as a centre. And during one of my county trials at, U18, U16, I can't remember now, one of the coaches moved me to, to back row from centre. I was like, oh, this is gonna be awful. And I absolutely loved it. they obviously recognised that I maybe wasn't quite skillful enough to operate in the backs, but I was, I was crazy enough to operate in the forwards and yeah, so that was it. I, I was moved during a trial, and, it was like an epiphany. I dunno whether you've had it Arthur, when you play sport and you just, you're given the opportunity to play in a different position. You know, you might have resisted it because, you know, I play centre or I play fly half. But actually because someone took a chance, went give it a go, and I was, I suppose, brave enough or just following orders, suddenly realised it was absolutely what I loved doing. So essentially chasing the ball around, tackling people as often as I could do. And, yeah, trying to inflict as, much chaos on the opposition as possible. It was a, wise decision, but I think it was Bryan Welford who was, who coached generations of Leicester Tigers rugby players through the academy. well, not the academy. It would've mean the county system then. What position do you play, arthur?

Arthur:

I play fly half.

Lewis:

Do you? Okay. And would you ever consider playing the forwards?

Arthur:

I'm not big enough. I'm only 4'10". So

Lewis:

I Okay. Maybe you got years of growing ahead of you.

Arthur:

true.

Lewis:

had to play any other position, what would it be?

Arthur:

I'd probably quite like to play, at centre.

Lewis:

Okay.

Arthur:

I quite, that would be a good position to play. What about you?

Lewis:

Well, I always had no, well, not an argument. I always, tried to get my Leicester Tigers coach to play me back in the centres. And he said he would do it for a game, and then he got sacked. So I never got to do it, but I did, end up playing on the wing, a couple of times for Leicester because when I was young I was, pretty quick. And because I'd come from that sort of centre position, I had a reasonable understanding of what I was doing. But, but what position would I, I do, you know what, I don't think there was another position I'd like to have played on the pitch other than six or seven. I absolutely loved it. It was just, it was made for someone like me. Loved running around, loved being in nuisance, and loved looking after his teammates. So, yeah. Yeah, a difficult one.

Arthur:

You Debuted for Leicester at just 18. Can you tell us about that?

Lewis:

I left school in the June, and my first team coach at school was Chap called Ian Dosser Smith, who was a Tiger's legend at the time. And, he said, see how you go and get on at Tiger's training? So, which I did. So I went from sitting, you know, in my, in my boarding house, Oakham school in Wharflands watching Martin Johnson, Rory Underwood, Graham Roundtree, Neil back, who all my schoolboy heroes. And then, you know, a month later I was training alongside them. And two months after that I was asked to play my first game at Welford Road. And there are plenty of, words I could use to, to tell you how I felt in the buildup to that game, Arthur, but I'm not gonna use'em on here. I was very nervous. We'll put it that way. And and I remember sitting in the, in, in the changing room and there was guys like Dean Richards who'd played in World Cups and you know, captain Leicester for donkey's years and all these just unbelievable rugby players. There was an 18-year-old me public schoolboy just been playing first team rugby at Oakham School. Literally two months prior to it. And all of a sudden I was playing at Welford Road where I'd been sat, you know, sat in the stands, chanting the various Tiger songs. So, and I played against Boroughmuir and we won. And it was one of the very few occasions that I scored two tries in a game. And they were both from over the halfway line, which was quite remarkable.'cause every other Try I scored was from about three feet of the back off a mall. But, but yeah, it was one of the. Proudest and most enjoyable experiences of my life and what and when I, what I loved about it the most, Arthur, was, I was quite nervous individual prior to games. I was quite a shy character at school. and I didn't really know any of the guys that I was playing with. But because I loved rugby so much, I was prepared to deal with the anxiety and the nerves and the, discomfort of the social interactions, and just crack on with it. And, I did, and it was the best thing I ever could have done.

Arthur:

speaking about nerves, how did you deal your nerves before a big game?

Lewis:

I think in different ways, as you get older and as you mature, you, find different things that work for you. I suppose I'll share a couple. So to start with, when I, was playing a Leicester, because I got quite nervous, I'd try and do anything I could to distract myself pre-game. So, when we got to the ground. We'd, I'd go out with a couple of other lads my age and we'd just get rugby ball. We'd do Keepy-Ups, you know, like football Keepy-Ups. and we had to try and get 20 before we were allowed back inside, and that could take 40 minutes for us to try and get 20 Keepy-Ups. but it was literally just a way of distracting my mind because otherwise it would be really, it is really easy to use up all your emotional energy before the game. And because I'm quite an emotional character and quite a passionate individual, the. I want to keep all that under wraps until I need it when I get out on the pitch. So that was one way that I did it. as I moved through Leicester and went off to England, you encounter a different type of, anticipation and nerves pre-game because all of a sudden you're in massive stadium. You've got people watching, more people watching on tv. so I used to night before a game. I, the nervous energy would start. So I'd just find little routines. So if there were things I was worried about forgetting, I had a notepad by my bed. So I'd, make a note of all the, well, we had the first involvement, so a list of your first involvements in the game. So it might be line out, scrum 22 backs, play whatever it was. So I had them listed down. Then if there's anything in particular like, a call or, a focus area that I wanted to be really, clear and focused on in the game, I'd have that. And sort of highlighted at the bottom. And so once I'd written them down, I could then almost forget about it and not worry about it. And then, another distraction technique was that we used to go to the cinema. So literally switch your brain off completely. Just go and sit in a cinema with a huge tub of pick and mix. You know, the nutritionist didn't know about that, but we were gonna burn it off the next day, so it was fine. and yeah, and from the, movies, we'd try and pick out a try celebration. So whatever movie we watched, we'd pick out a try celebration. And because I normally went with a couple of backs, they'd end up getting to do the try celebration in the game. I, mean, I might have got to do about two or three, but, but it was just a way of relaxing yourself. And then in the morning when he woke up, I'd cast my eye over the list again. I cast my over the list before I went to bed. When I woke up, became comfortable, I've got all the calls. and then I had to check that I got all my kit packed. So go through my bag, check it, again. Leave it, check it again, check it about 10 times so you can end up picking up so many superstitions. Arthur, if you're not careful. I remember I got to the point where I had so many little rituals that I did pre-game. I was nervous. I was gonna forget a ritual, and then that was becoming counterproductive. So I had to sort of cut back the number of things I had over time. But they, were a few ways that, that I used to, control my nerves and, sort of an anticipation pregame. There was another one as well as I got further into my career. I actually found it harder to get to the level of emotional readiness that I felt I needed to play at the highest level. And, I worked with a, leadership coach and a sports psychologist, and he gave me this really cool little sort of tool where he said, you need three things. So pick a really important piece of music that, you know, you connect with instantly, and you know, a piece of music that when you, listen to it, transports you to a place straight away. Might be a beach or a rugby pitch or a changing room or whatever. So pick one piece of music. take a important possession that is, you know, important to you and only you. And then a world class moment. So in your mind, pick a moment when you are playing at your best. So when you are world class, for me that was playing for the Lions against the All Blacks and playing Richie McCaw. And my item was my namesakes. I'm named after my great-grandfather, Lewis Walton Moody, and on the shelf over here, I've got his first World War, Bronze Star, and it's so, it's a little star. So I'd hold that in my hand in the, change rooms before the game, and I'd pick a song by the Foo Fighters called My Hero. And for about two minutes I just locked myself away, the toilet, holding the star music on and just visualising this. Moment in time where I felt I was playing at my best. And it, I suppose the, intent of doing all that was to hype, you know, it was almost to hype myself up enough because I was finding it really difficult to get hyped up for games as longer I'd played. and that was quite a, that was quite a, you know, a cool experience to figure out, first of all, how to, in my early career, how to, you know, calm and stay under control and repress those, anxieties, anticipations, excitement. And then as I got older, how do I lean into them and how do I actually fire them up again so that I can deliver what I need to on the pitch? Yeah. So those,

Arthur:

Speaking. of Try celebrations. What was your favourite celebration?

Lewis:

well, we had loads mapped out. My mine always ended embarrassingly because I got too excited'cause I didn't score very often. I scored against New Zealand in my first game against the All Blacks at Twickenham and I had a really nice, try celebration lined up from the movie from the night before. I think it was, dude, where's my car? And as I scored in the corner, I got knee in the kidneys and, the head by, Chris, Jack and Dougie Howlet. And and I didn't get up for about two minutes, so the try celebration went out the window. But the other one I remember was we watched a movie called Crouching Tiger. Hidden Dragon. And oh no, was it, or was it, might have been another one. Meet, meet the Fockers where he does the whole looking at you type thing. And and I remember I scored off a kickoff, so Sprinted chased kickoff, caught it, ran under the post against Gloucester and scored, and I was so excited. I actually poked myself in the eye. try celebrations didn't normally go that well for me. Arthur to leave that the backs, leave that to you fly-halfs.

Arthur:

What skill did you have to work the hardest on as a young flanker?

Lewis:

Ooh. Probably the jackal. So I grew up, in a team where Neil back, who was the best openside flanker in the world, arguably at the time, playing in a similar position to me. I played six and seven. And he was remarkable at Jackaling so I say jackaling at, you know, getting in over the opposition ball and stealing it essentially. and because I was, you know, probably five or six inches taller than Backie, you know, it was harder for me to get well. I found it hard to get down there and do that. So that was something that I tried to improve during the course of, during the course of my career. I could never master it as well as Neil Back, but, but I did improve.

Arthur:

How did you have any mantras that you lived by when you were playing or now?

Lewis:

oh, when I was playing, you know, this, will sound very cheesy, but it was. It was that sort of, it was just never give up. It was like, and that, that applied in multiple situations, whether it was on the pitch and we were losing, you know, by 20 points and there was only five minutes left. You know, that desire to never want to concede any point. that, that was probably instilled in me from a young age by Ian Dosser Smith, who was my first team coach. but also in training that then sort of. That need to impress in training, wherever I was, whoever I was playing with, however long I'd been playing, whether I was senior or junior. yeah, there was something about that, that never giving up mentality that resonated with me so that the game was never done. A point was never done. You know, a, a breakdown was never conceded until the, you know, until you move on to the next job. So that was, that was probably one is there. Is that one that I live by now? There probably is, and I normally have, I normally have loads of, little quotes in the back of my mind, but I suppose, if there's anything I live by now, so when I retired, I met loads of people when I played that were businessmen that had retired in their fifties, forties, early, late, fifties, trying to catch up time with their kids again. so one of the, one of the mantras I had, actually, the only real decision I ever made when I retired was, to make sure that I used my time wisely. and, for me that was making sure I spent as much time with my kids as I possibly could do because, you never get that time back. And, and now that my kids are 17 and 14, so I suppose if there's a mantra to that, it's, being present and living in the moment. And, and I've, always tried to do that, you know, whether when I was playing or, in retirement. And, and it's served me well till now anyway.

Arthur:

Wow. Thank you. I'll use the never give up one when I play my next game.

Lewis:

Yeah, you got it. there's something about chasing, there's never a lost cause. You know, there was a, I remember playing the sevens game and we were winning, and, the opposition broke through the line and one of the guys next to me said, oh, just leave him, just save your energy. I was like, leave him and save your energy. What on earth do you mean? So I chased him 60 meters back and tackled him five metres short of the try line, turned the ball over and made sure they didn't score. You know, there was just that, there's that ruthless competitor in me that would never let anything go, you know, just couldn't let it.

Arthur:

What position did you play in sevens?

Lewis:

I was in the forwards. I would've been prop. Yeah, I was a prop.'cause mostly backs that play. Sevens really isn't it? You know, not many of us forwards. It's probably a couple of flankers would make a sevens team now. But you've gotta be rapid. There's a guy I played with called Tom Croft who was as quick as any of the back. So he would've been pretty tidy.

Arthur:

Is, do you talk, is Tom Croft a professional rugby player today?

Lewis:

No, he's retired now. So Crofty is probably 10 years younger than me, but he retired early'cause he cracked his neck. he was, yeah, really talented. Played for Lions, played for Leicester for a long time. Super quick. he was actually a dancer at school, which I think gave him a whole different level of flexibility, agility, and obviously he got mercilessly. Mocked for that at times when he first turned up and we found out. but, but it, meant he could do things on a rugby pitch that none of us could do. He was, really talented.

Arthur:

Anyone ever get in your head before a game?

Lewis:

I don't think so. The only time I was ever concerned about. Who I was playing against on a rugby pitch was when we played the All Blacks. and Jonah Lomu was playing and I dunno, you may have heard of Jonah Lomu. Arthur, or you may have not, but he was one of the first truly, you know, athletic, powerful, huge Samoan, was he Samoan or Tongan, and I forget now, and apologies, but he was just enormous. And at the time when, you know, we hadn't seen, Anything like him. And when England played him in the World Cup in 95, he just terrorised the entire team. it was like a, an adult playing against babies. You know, he was just so dominant. And when I came into the England team in 2000, 2001, he was, you know, still an absolute force of nature. And my first game against the All Blacks one in which I scored in, I told you about, he was playing and I was. I was nervous about having to tackle him. I really was. But, but that's the only time I think I'd ever been concerned about an opposition player and, how I would stop them, you know?'cause I love part of rugby and sport is the, competition. I love the test. I love figuring out how good I am compared to the other individual. and wheyou play South Africa, you get to see how physical you are. And can you compare with the likes of, you know, Bakkies, Botha and all these unbelievable players. When you played the Australians, it was, you know, could you outthink them because they're so tactical, they're so quick, they're so sharp. And, the all blacks, I suppose were a mix of, everything. So, when you come up against Jonah, that was just a total anomaly because you'd, we'd never experienced anything like it before. And Phil Vickery was probably 23 stone and on my team, and I was about 16 stone as a flanker at that point. Probably quite light. I remember Vicks being just outside. Me and Jonah ran straight at him and I thought, happy days.'cause you know, Vicks is definitely gonna be able to stop him. And he literally just bumped him off and ran over him. But it did slow him down enough so that I could sort of jump on his back and hitch a ride until enough of us could pile on him and bring him down. But yeah, he was, a really remarkable player and he set the sort of precedent for what became these enormous, highly skillful, highly powerful. Backs that we see in the game now.

Arthur:

What Leon, Lloyd said is just go for the legs.

Lewis:

Well, they can't run without their legs after that is a fair point. Although I never saw Leon make a single tackle. So I mean, I dunno. He was, I played with Leon for a long time. He was a lot of fun. He was a very good player. but yeah, I think that's probably a fair. A fair challenge. The only sad thing when you're playing Jonah Lomu is that his legs are about the size of, two small cars. So gonna get your arms around them around one, let alone two, is impossible. we had to go the gang mentality to tackle Jonah. If you go into Google and put in Jonah Lomu, like schoolboy days or early career, you'll be blown away.'cause he literally picks up six, seven people and carries them all the way to the try line.

Arthur:

I'll Watch that after this.

Lewis:

Yeah.

Arthur:

Did you ever feel intimidated by an opposite number or an opposition pack?

Lewis:

So the only intimidation I felt was Jonah really as an individual. As I said, I, because I like to test myself and figure out how good I was. It meant I, I needed to test myself against the best players in my position as well. So again, that was another back rower. and that was Richie McCaw. And I found out pretty quickly when I played him for the first time, that I had a significant amount of work to do if I wanted to get anywhere near his standard. He was just remarkable. He had a real, strength in really low and difficult positions and I could never quite understand how he managed to. To stay as strong as he did in those really awkward positions. but yeah, he was there was no fear or anything like that playing them. There was almost an excitement to understand how far I had to develop to, to end up, you know, being anywhere near as good as Richie McCaw. So, I really enjoyed playing against him. He's just, just a really hardworking, skillful. and ruthless rugby player, you know, he knew how to get the referees on his side, the best, the, team that I was probably most excited to play against, or you, asked about the pack Arthur that would be South Africa, because I love the physical nature of rugby. You know, you'll probably listen to a lot of the backs or forwards talk about, you know, the evasion, the movement, the creativity that I, there was something about the physicality of rugby that I particularly loved. And it was maybe that competitive challenge, you know, it brought out certain inner qualities that you only really found out in individuals when they were really tested in a physical contest and, South Africa always provided it. so playing the South Africans Arthur was something I always looked forward to, but with a pang of, you know, trepidation because they were massive. you know, if you watch South, you got Eben, Etzabeth, and all those giant. and when I was playing you had Bakkies Botha and Victor Matlock and you know, all sorts of, Schalk Brits and Schalk Berger and these guys were just so much fun to play against'cause they were so tough and so physical and you knew if you beat or you got the better of South Africa, you knew you would've had to go through some real discomfort to, to get a win. Do you like, the contact, do you like the physical

Arthur:

I like it when there's a, drizzle and it's a competitive game.

Lewis:

okay. Nice.

Arthur:

What made you successful as a rugby player?

Lewis:

I do not think I've ever been asked that question. what made me successful as a rugby player? I think probably my tenacity. I don't believe I was a, I was a. Good quality rugby player. I was quick, I was skillful. but my persistence, I think was my strength. The fact that I never gave up on, on a lost cause, you know, I would chase every kick I would chase, you know, defensively. I would, pressure every individual, every fly, half. I would then move on to the next one. I just, there was. There was this tenacity within me and this persistence to, to want to succeed and, prove myself. That I think probably meant I got to play for longer than some of the other guys that were more skillful than me. just because I bought maybe a different level of intensity. I wasn't a hard player. I wasn't tough, I wasn't, you know, any of those things, but I was just tenacious. I just. I loved playing for a team and when I played at Leicester, playing with my mates, so you mentioned Leon Lloyd, Geordan Murphy, all these lads that I grew up with for years, we were so tight. And that tenacity and that passion grew. The more we grew and got to know each other as a team, the more I would want to do for my team. so yeah, I think that's probably what. What made me the, player I was,'cause I definitely wasn't the most skillful, but, I was probably the most tenacious

Arthur:

What's the most enjoyable part of playing flanker.

Lewis:

chasing Fly-Halfs, Arthur! I generally think for me it was. I was quite a defensive player, so I mean that I enjoyed the defensive element of the game. because of the club that I grew up in at Leicester, you know, there was a lot of emphasis put on defence winning games. and my role in terms of getting into a fly half's head and, pressuring him early. all those types of that, that I enjoyed.'cause that was, you You V other, player, and probably tackling the tackling side of it. I, really relished, you know, getting stuck into, the opposition. Yeah. Those two things probably.

Arthur:

And speaking of fly halfs, was there any fly half that really got on your nerves that you just wanted to smash?

Lewis:

yes. Yeah. Many fly halfs. Arthur, actually, I, but there was a guy called Quade Cooper who played for Australia, who was unbelievable talent. Just so good and in one game. So it was my first game as captain of England, actually, he utterly humiliated me on about seven or eight occasions. I got my positioning wrong. I got my timing wrong, you know, my height, everything. I got wrong every time I got near him. And the more I got it wrong, the more he would beat me, and the more I would then overthink it and over chase it, and the more he would beat me. So I think I missed. Seven tackles in that game, which is my first game as England Captain. When you want to impress. and bearing in mind we had sort of completion, you know, rates. So if you are making, you know, you are making 10 tackles a game, let's say, you know, we would normally have a 95 to 100% completion rate. So it gives you like, oh, you're allowed to miss one tackle, basically. And so missing seven, it literally never happened in my entire career. I think I'd had about 60 or 70 caps at this point, and I thought I'd never play again. And, thankfully the coaches decided to retain me on the team the following week, and, and I made it my absolute mission to terrorise Quade Cooper for the entire game, which I did. So from the very first line out, I set up a call, which would allow me to get into him an opportunity to get stuck into him. And I did. I absolutely clattered him for first, first line out, 30 seconds into the game. and that was it. Once we'd done that, once I was into it, never missed a tackle. And, But, he really made me, because he was so good, he, really made me want to get stuck into him. Andy was an Aussie, so they've always got that, bit of edge, about him in the chat.

Arthur:

It must have felt good.

Lewis:

It did feel good. Yeah. Especially after he humiliated me.

Arthur:

And what advice would you give to a youngster who wants to play flanker?

Lewis:

I would say make sure you enjoy what you're doing. Don't focus on just being a flanker. Try lots of different positions. and if you're gonna focus on anything, focus on, skill and speed, over, over strength and, all those other things. Fitness, maybe we'll come into it at a certain point, but if you're playing enough sport at school, you'll probably be getting a lot of fitness anyway. So just that skillset and getting lots of time on the ball and. And enjoying playing would, be my, my advice. I don't pigeonhole yourself too early. Don't just think you're a flanker from the word go. You may love that position, but try other positions. Try other sports, because it will all benefit you ultimately.

Arthur:

How does it feel playing at Twickenham one week and at your home ground the next?

Lewis:

I always found that strange actually,'cause I mean, I was lucky'cause Leicester had a probably the biggest, fan base in the Premiership during my playing career. So we sort of had 19 to 20 odd thousand a week. so the step up to Twickenham wasn't, didn't seem as, as big. Obviously it was, you know, 80, 90,000. So it was significant. But because also at the time, the majority of my team at Leicester, seven or eight of them, were in the England squad with me. So, whereas I think if I'd been at Harlequins or Sale or London Irish, the step up would've been, would've maybe felt bigger. But because I was training with these guys who were all seasoned internationals. They were so competitive. You know, our second team was probably stronger than a lot of the premise, the other premiership sites at the time, during my era, which meant training was always, you know, super combative and super competitive. So you had to be at your best all the time. So whenever I stepped up into those England sessions, it felt very normal. the, diff the hardest thing I think when you move from club to international stage is, Gelling with players that you spend. Weekends and weeks learning to, you know, tear strips out of, because they're the opposition. All of a sudden now they're your mates and your teammates, and how do you build a rapport and a bond with them? I, enjoyed that actually, and it made going back to club rugby and playing against them even more enjoyable.

Arthur:

What other position on the rugby pitch do you rely on the most?

Lewis:

I probably think my other back row colleagues and my fly half. So, you know, whether in defence or attack, there's, you know, there's a real link between the fly half and the flanker, especially if you're an open side, defensively, you need to know that the fly half's in the right position he's not, giving you too much ground to cover. So you can get beaten on the outside. you need a clear, you know, clear line of communication. and you often have little sort of words or. or messages that you'll use, in those one-to-one interactions, just between you and the fly half, that will mean something specific, like watch the eight pick or, you know, centre might be coming on a, on, a short ball back on the inside. You know, there's all sorts of things. and then the other connection is with the number eight, because if I'm, leaving as a flanker, let's say the eight picks or the fly half stood really wide, so I've gotta chase hard to get to that fly half if we're not. drifting or pressing, depending on what defence formation we're using, I may have to go hard, which means there's always an opportunity for cutback on my inside. So knowing that eight is there and covering, you know, covering my back is, also key. And those little conversations that you have when you're binding up on a scrum, you know, you'll be talking to each other, making sure that you are all switched on to whatever eventuality may present itself, but then we would've covered it. A billion times in training, you know, because you get the second team to run all the opposition plays. So you've seen it, you've tried it, doesn't mean you always get it right, but, yeah. So the eight and the 10, I suppose for me is a seven or a six.

Arthur:

What wisdom do you have now that you wished you had when you started out in your career?

Lewis:

I think that's probably quite easy for me because of all the, things I've alluded to in terms of my temperament and the way that I played the game, it meant that I had a lot of injuries and, some of them were, just part and parcel of playing sport, you know, muscle tears and, you know, twisted ankles and all sorts of things. But, there were probably some that could have been avoided, if I could have tempered my approach to training or not to matches, because you have to play a certain intensity if you want to play elite sport. but in training, I think I, I brought the same intensity, which was detrimental to my health at times. So, that, that would've been my learning. And it's not that people didn't try to say it. I just, yeah, I found it hard to hear when I was a player. I thought it, may dampen what I brought to the team. So, I would change that now. That would be my. My piece of wisdom would be, look after you, look after your body.'cause it's the tool you need to play the game.

Arthur:

Exactly. If you had your rugby career all over again, what position would, if you had to play any position, what would you play?

Lewis:

I literally can't imagine playing any other position, Arthur, than, than back row. I would've given, I would like to have given it a go in the centres just to see if there, if I could have, if I could have made it. But I'm pretty confident I wouldn't have done. But it would've been nice to have a run out in one game, at least.

Arthur:

What do you miss most about playing rugby?

Lewis:

The competition. I speak to a lot of my old playing colleagues about this, and we, all have differing. Differing answers to this. I think some of the lads will say the camaraderie in the changing room. I do miss that. You know, the amount of time you spend together in each other's company, that's, really enjoyable. You get to know people really well. but the competition for me, you just outside of the sport, whether I, know you would, I could probably make the assumption that a lot of sports people feel this because there's nothing that compares to the bubble of sport, whether it's rugby, football. it's so all encompassing and it's so important to you when you are in it it's hard to replace when you are, when you're out of it. So for me, it's the competitive nature of training, of being in the gym, of banter in the changing room of the matches. it's having, you know, jeopardy and a reason to want to go out and, and be successful, but the competitive nature of that is probably what I miss the most because you can't find it easily in life outside of sport.

Arthur:

That's the same with me. I love competitiveness in the game. In your view, who was or is the most complete back rower to play the game?

Lewis:

that is super easy, and I've mentioned his name already as Richie McCaw. there are lots of players who were incredible back rowers. But because you said who is the most complete? just, he was just so good. Arthur, like every time he played, he was arguably the best player on the pitch and he was so consistent. Somehow he didn't get on the wrong side of the referees, which is a remarkable achievement for a back rower.'cause I seemed to piss every referee off. but yeah, you know, whether it was the tackle, the turnover, the chase, the timing of when he sort of chose to go in and contest the ball. yeah, he, was just, and then when he moved into captaincy, he just had a real calmness. You could see that he was, a little bit like Martin Johnson, who was my England captain and my club captain, who was a great leader of people. Richie McCaw seemed to have, he was a different character that seemed to have the same qualities that his team, aspired to, to want to be, beside him and, playing with him. And certainly playing him against him, he was just remarkable.

Arthur:

Did you ever talk to him after the game?

Lewis:

yeah. Nice guy. Quiet chap. very down to earth. yeah. wasn't a big drinker or anything like that, you know, in an era. I grew up in an era where, there was a, there was probably a little bit of a, drinking culture after games and people would go out and, have, fun together. But, yeah, no, Richie was a, an out, out, a professional, really nice guy. Obviously he still is. There were lots of guys like that, you know, Schulke Berger, for South Africa. Martin Williams for Wales. Ryan Jones for Wales. yeah, goodness me, you know, Thierry Dusautoir Harinordoquy there were just so many good players. Yeah. But Richie stood, Richie was a Yeah, he was the god of the back row.

Arthur:

did you ever get any tips from him?

Lewis:

not that he ever gave me intentionally. I got tips that I learned from playing against him. but no, I didn't get any tips off him, sadly.

Arthur:

Thank you. And last question, who of your rugby mates do you think would be great on my podcast?

Lewis:

Who of my rugby mates would be good on your podcast? oh, goodness me. You've had Leon, haven't you? Geordan Murphy would be quite good fun for you as an Irishman. oh, you should, have you ever had Phil Vickery on?

Arthur:

No, I haven't.

Lewis:

Oh, you should get Vicks on. He is such a bundle of fun. He, one of the most passionate, lovely human beings you'll ever meet, wears his heart on his sleeve. He was a Gloucester player, who ended up. Playing for wasps very successful. the Raging Bull was his nickname. I reckon he might him or Geordan Murphy might be, would be my two names for you. Does that mean I've gotta give you their contacts now? I won't do it online.

Arthur:

I also wanna say thank you so much for our podcast. I really appreciate you taking your time, Lewis.

Lewis:

Arthur, it's an absolute pleasure talking to you, mate, and and good luck with the rest of the podcast.

Arthur:

Thank you.