Rugby Legends with Arthur Dickins

Richard Hill: Lessons from a World Cup Winner and Lions Legend

• Arthur Dickins • Season 1 • Episode 10

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Richard Hill – World Cup winner, England legend, and the ultimate back row warrior. In this episode of Rugby Legends, Richard opens up about his journey from multi-sport beginnings to becoming one of the most respected flankers in rugby history.

He shares the secret ingredients that shaped his success – from the friendships forged in the game, to the toughest coaches that pushed him further than he thought possible. Richard reveals what it really takes to master the flanker position, overcome devastating injuries, and keep performing at the very top level.

We hear about the matches that defined him, the teammates who inspired him, and the mantras that carried him through the hardest moments of his career. With honesty and wisdom, he reflects on what he misses most about rugby, how the game has evolved, and why resilience and adaptability matter as much as raw talent.

If you want to understand the mindset of a true England great – and what it takes to bounce back stronger every time life knocks you down – this is an episode you won’t want to miss.

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Arthur:

Hi, I'm Arthur Dickins and this is my Rugby Legends podcast. In each episode, I interview an amazing rugby player or coach to get their insight and advice for young rugby players just like me, who are keen to learn and get better. In this episode, I'm really excited to be speaking with Richard Hill, England World Cup winner and three times Lions tourist. Richard is definitely a legend of the game. He's widely regarded as one of England's best players of all time, as well as one of the great back row players of the modern game. Richard played his club rugby at Saracens making 275 appearances over a 15 year period. He was capped 71 times by England and played in five tests for the British Irish Lions. I hope you find Richard's knowledge and wisdom has helpful as I did, enjoy. Firstly, thank you so much Richard, for being on my podcast. I really appreciate taking your time.

Richard:

That's great, Arthur. I'm looking forward to joining you.

Arthur:

So firstly, Richard, you are a phenomenal rugby player and was spotted by England from a very young age, but did you play any other sports growing up?

Richard:

I did, and I think it's an important part of development as a young player, and it was certainly an important part with myself. I went to a tiny little, primary school, so I think there were 64 children in the whole school, but there were only four in my year group. so I got to play for school teams from quite a young age, so it didn't matter whether it was football, rounders, I, tended to make the team from about seven years up to, up to finishing school. So that, that was great'cause it was good exposure. playing against peoplele that were bigger, or schools that had more players than us. clearly we tried to pitch it that we played against smaller schools like ourselves, so it was more of an even match. But, I'd play football, on a Saturday morning, literally just within my little village. I'd play rugby on a Sunday, but then when I went to secondary school. much bigger school. It opened me up to a lot more sport. obviously within PE, we'd play basketball, we'd play cricket, we'd do athletics. rugby was, the main sport. so that was good for me. but then if we played football, I'd be the bloke who was wearing oversized metal studs against people who didn't like it. So I got a bit of a reputation early on for the player that they didn't like to play against.

Arthur:

and what was your favorite sport except from rugby then?

Richard:

so rugby clearly was my main winter sport. but football is so much easier to play, particularly during break time, lunchtime. So I would always take part in that. And then summer sport would've been more cricket. but I very much did that socially. with friends, and then would occasionally turn out for some local village teams if they were short on a Saturday, I, didn't commit to every weekend. If I did that, then I'd never have a Saturday to, to myself at all.

Arthur:

Where you a batsman or bowler in cricket?

Richard:

I'd prefer to bowl

Arthur:

seam or spin?

Richard:

Seam. It wouldn't be fast, not with my size, but particularly if you went down and played on some of the grounds in the new forest with some of the conditions down there, you've got a lot of swing.

Arthur:

You represented England at every age group level. What made you successful when you were still a teenager?

Richard:

well, I was fortunate that. I went and played rugby when I was five years old at my junior rugby club, Salisbury. So I was lucky in that we had a good group of friends, who all played, all enjoyed, all really competitive. So we did push each other, even though we weren't pushing each other in terms of win or lose. It was just, who can carry the best, who can tackle with the best? but we also had some coaches who made it very enjoyable, which I think is great in terms of, retaining players. so we were a group of players that have stayed together. I'm still good friends with players that I played with when I'm five and six years old. and then I went to a secondary school that concentrated on rugby. so we played on Saturdays before Christmas. we had some good coaches, a guy who led the program who was ex Marine. So he very much believed in being fit as well as having good skills. so he taught us, some, good basics to have and I think that aided game understanding. and because we were in a good rugby playing program, we got to play against, some of the local private schools, some private schools that were further away. We were able to expand the quality of teams we were playing against, and that, that helped, massively. And then I just found myself really joining what was. The old system of, trying to play for England, you, started in on a very convoluted program, of playing against a team to make a new team to play against two other teams that have come together, and it just snowballed like that. So I probably got encouraged by a friend who was one years older who played for England. U16's and U18's. And he said that he thought I had more than enough quality to get into the team the year after. So I suppose that's a, that was a boost. and something that I took on board. But like any young player coming through, I had some of the normal discussions around, I was deemed under sixteens too small. to, to have forced my way into the starting team, which meant whilst I sat on the bench for England under sixteens, I never got on the pitch. So there are all these moments in your career where you look at it and go, it's setbacks that pushed you. And there were other times where your desire to improve a skill got you better, but, you just had to pick and choose each time, what, was the most important part for you?

Arthur:

And as you talked about friends, do you still talk to any of them today?

Richard:

Yeah. I'd just been down to Australia to watch the Lions, so I would've caught up with one of my friends, who was, I'd have been like five or six years old when we first played together. another friend would've been. Who now lives in Australia was my first team captain at school. I met up with the Salisbury first 15 adult captain, who was my captain when I debuted as a 16-year-old. there were other members of my old junior rugby club out there. And then of course there were lots of people connected with, playing rugby as a professional with Saracens, or whether it's England or Lions.

Arthur:

What's your favourite game at the Lions?

Richard:

on the one just gone. I only got to watch the second and third test live. I thought they played incredibly well in the first test. a very dominant, and I thought it was gonna be an ominous, result and performance for Australia. But, I enjoyed the fight back of the Lions'cause I in the second test,'cause I thought that game was going away from'em and they stayed in it and their ability to, every time getting the 22 and score became ultimately. Very important. And, scoring in the last play of the game was very dramatic. And, I suppose the lions crowd in the stadium were euphoric.

Arthur:

Were you always going to be a flanker? What other positions did you play growing up?

Richard:

So because, minis would've been nine aside, that, that. That meant I could play pretty much anywhere in the forwards, but when I was probably from about 10 years onwards, if the under thirteens needed extra players, I tended to be one of those who played up. So I played two years up for under thirteens and then one year up. But there was almost like this unwritten agreement that if there was someone who played in the back row or they had a whole back row who were under thirteens, then they played in the back row.'cause it's their team. I, so there, therefore, I would just play in whatever positions they were short. So I might have a run out a wing. I remember one day playing down in, near Bristol in Keynsham it was, and the river was flooded. So I was playing fullback in about two inches of water, which meant I didn't really see much of the ball in that game. But again, I might get loaned out to other play, other teams just so they had 15 players. I remember having a. one game at fly-half. but I think nine is probably the one position I never really got trusted with too big. Couldn't bend over, couldn't bend over quick enough. but no, I, loved it. And certainly in terms of like, if you were to say representative rugby, I was always, my younger years, I was always a, number eight. it wasn't until I joined Saracens and then there was this period where it was like everyone had to be massive, so I was deemed too small to play number eight, but then clearly the game, changed a bit, became a bit more dynamic, a bit faster, and therefore playing anywhere in the back row became a possibility. but as we're seeing with versatility with, Ben Earl for England playing in the center, if we had a yellow card, then I might be asked to go out in the backs to defend. Either as a first option off the line out, or go out on the blindside wing or even just step in at the centers. it's good to have that ability to, play in other positions, just to give yourself a be better chance of selection.

Arthur:

Talking about positions, what position on the rugby pitch did you rely the most?

Richard:

I think we all rely a lot on the props. they, do a lot of the unseen work. they play in a position I'm not sure I really want to play, but, the scrums important. They, their role in lifting and I think, you could say it's the whole way across the front row because if you've got a hooker who's not hitting his target in the line out, then you don't have any first phase possession. No first phase possession means the backs are doing nothing bar defending. So unless they like defending, and then it's not much use to them. I think they probably prefer to have the ball in their own hands.

Arthur:

That's exactly what David Flatman says,'cause quite a lot of people say fly-half or scrum-half. But he said props.

Richard:

Well, he would say prop, wouldn't he?

Arthur:

What's the, what was the facet of rugby, which was your particular strength growing up?

Richard:

as I say, I think I got involved with some good coaches when I was younger, and I, think what they were able to do was instill a very good game. Understanding, reading the game, reading the bounce of a ball, trying to anticipate where you think opposition are, gonna attack. understanding where we might be a little bit short in defence or, if, you were to appear on the outside shoulder of the fly-half there's space outside, so therefore there's a line break opportunity. yeah, the reacting. Reacting to how the game unfolds, I think was a good strength of mine.

Arthur:

That's very interesting. Thank you. What did you enjoy most about playing flanker?

Richard:

that you are always in the game. flankers are always quite close to the game set piece. Clearly you have your role to do, whether that's to, push incredibly hard or in the line out you are potentially lifting or jumping or, offering a dummy. but then once the ball goes out, you, tend to be tracking the ball. You wanna be somewhere near it. if you're an open side flanker that you, there's normal expectation on first phase that you are gonna be securing it or linking and passing. so it is, I think it's that all round enjoyment of being near the ball and playing with the ball, or you have to enjoy defending as well. So. Chasing people down, trying to knock'em over, get the ball back. it's, all, going on all the time.

Arthur:

How difficult was it be to be? How difficult was it to switch between open side and blind side?

Richard:

I found it quite comfortable. I, think that probably helped by, I would be rotating between the two quite regularly, whether it was England and, club would play me Majoratively open side. but I did play a. Across all three back row positions. England again was probably predominantly blindside, but then I started as an open side, trained a lot, to make sure that if we picked up injuries or there were certain substitutions that were made that we were covering off, peop that we made sure that we were all comfortable with the calls and that it didn't affect the team if we made any changes or changes were enforced upon us. Yeah, so I was quite comfortable with going between the two. Truth be known, I probably preferred to play open side, but, just want to be selected, want be in the team and want to be having the, biggest impact on team performing when I'm winning.

Arthur:

What did you like so much about Openside?

Richard:

it was more the, just being closer to the ball. Yeah, probably a little bit more ball movement, as in passing, you get your hands on the ball, you you're able to make more line breaks. Whereas a, blindside, it might be that it's you've gotta have a bit more physical presence to be getting through, the two man tackles that you're facing.

Arthur:

Who was the most influential teammate in your career, and what did you learn from them?

Richard:

So many players. hard to put it down to one individual. if, even if I was just to keep it at an England level, you got Martin Johnson who is a colossal leader, just a man who you respected because. Whatever he was asking you to do, you knew he was prepared to do it himself. you had Jonny Wilkinson who unbelievably diligent in terms of his skill development, his own. practise around kicking, goal kicking, there's no wonder he was so good and so measured and made such great decisions'cause he practised it so much. I'd love to say Jason Robinson, his running ability, but I was never gonna be able to copy that. So there was not, much point. But, yeah, so many great players out there. And even, club level. There's a guy called Tony Diprose who I played with. International age grade. Yeah. when I joined Saracens, he was a very, he was already an established first team player at a young age, who had great skills. so yeah, you're always trying to see how much, you can pick up off other people. you gotta be honest with yourself. You got to, as I say with Jason, you've gotta understand whether you can, you are capable of being able to replicate the skills, whether you've got the, physical capability or, the skillset to do it. Otherwise you can get yourself into a bit of a mess on a rugby pitch by trying to copy a skill and getting it completely wrong.

Arthur:

Who's been your most challenging coach and why?

Richard:

the, first ever school head of school, he was a very uncompromising man, get on well with him. took him out a couple of years ago for his 80th birthday. But yeah, Steve Ralph-Bowman, phenomenal in terms of, yeah, what he instilled in me with, some of the basic skills of drawing, running towards a player with a ball in hand, drawing the opposition, putting someone else away. He set up our teams brilliantly. As I said, he was an ex-Marine, so therefore he physically pushed us. there was the mindset side of it, which he was used to around his military background. if, no one turned up, if no teacher turned up for rugby training, still happened. We didn't know whether it was deliberate or not, but you knew if you didn't organise yourself well enough, you didn't do the fitness session or a fitness session that we thought we were meant to do, or the rugby training that would help us for the game of the weekend. We would get told off. so there was him, I think from a more technical point of view, I joined Saracens and there was this guy called Mark Evans who helped transition me from a number eight to a. To a, open side flanker, which probably needed a little bit of technical tweaking. And then there's no doubt in that when we got to. England, the likes of Andy Robinson, who I worked with for quite a long time, who helped mentor me a couple of years before I, I became an England first team, regular. he, would be tough and uncompromising with some of the more physical skill development that was needed around breakdown, clearing breakdowns, or whether it's lines of run, trying to anticipate where the game is gonna be played.

Arthur:

What's one piece of advice you'd give to a youngster who wants to be a successful flanker?

Richard:

I always believe that you've got to enjoy it. if you're not enjoying it's a tough world to be in. it's a physically demanding and quite often for young players coming through, it's the sport you played. As your recreation, your weekend enjoyment. Now, if you're not enjoying it and it's your job, it becomes a really hard thing to do. so you've definitely gotta keep that, there's no doubt. And in the higher, if you want to play up at higher levels, then you've got to be placing hard work. Yeah, you gotta work hard to get there. you gotta be real. you gotta understand what you're good at and, play to those strengths. but there are certain elements of the game, which if you want to be an international rugby player, it doesn't matter what your position, you still have to proficient at it. Everyone has to tackle. there's no hiding away from tackling. You can probably hide away from ball carry. but ideally we want 15 players who can carry the ball.

Arthur:

Exactly how did you keep positive and bounce back from the injuries that interrupted your career?

Richard:

Injuries is definitely the toughest part of it, or I found the toughest part of it. There's the one, two week injuries, which I think you can just about live with, but that moment that someone tells you're gonna be out the game for at least six months is, tough. the first time I tore my ACL, I'm fortunate in that, although there were a couple of moments where, we needed a bit of a reset and some interventions that needed to happen. It relatively went to plan, but unfortunately the second time, wasn't, and I was out of the game for 16 months, and then when you got people suggesting that maybe you should retire and I wasn't ready to retire, that becomes tough because, in order to prove them wrong, you've got to hit some really high physical standards as well as being able to, to move and run properly. And I found that I had to adapt myself, my running, my rugby, in order to be able to have the last year and a half that I did in rugby, which some people would say wasn't possible, but one man's not possible is another man's challenge.

Arthur:

That's a good quote.

Richard:

I dunno where that came from. Someone. It must, I must have read it somewhere.

Arthur:

what would you say was your worst injury?

Richard:

the worst one was by far a torn ACL, anterior cruciate ligament for the second time. that was tough because there was a lot that had to be fixed, and it definitely didn't go to plan. and at one point I was advised to go and see a second specialist and his advice was, you need to retire now. I came out, had a very emotional call with my own surgeon, and said that I want, one more, one more crack at it. And I'm so glad I did. Yeah. it might have taken a long, time to come back and play, but I'm glad I did.

Arthur:

are there any mantras that you live by?

Richard:

the harder, the hard, the harder you work, the more you'll get out of it.

Arthur:

What does that mean to you?

Richard:

so I always felt that fitness was an important part of my position and what allowed me to play to my super strengths. my super, strengths would've been my work rate around the pitch. the number of tackles I was able to make, the amount of times I was able to. Actively get on the ball as an attacking option or to secure possession. So I knew that I needed to be as fit as I could be. and that meant putting in some pretty horrible fitness sessions. and you can't always, you can't always have people around to watch you, or to help you through it. Sometimes you've gotta go out there on your own. and sometimes it's too easy for your concentration to. To dip a little bit, and you might do one, one sprint of a pitch that was 96% of what it should have been, 98%. But each time you're not hitting a hundred percent of what it would be. You are letting yourself down or you're not gonna achieve what you were hoping to. and that, that's the challenge. very lucky that, one, one of my best mates who we ended up living 20 meters apart, Kev Sorrell,, he became a big part of my training. and likewise I did for him. And, there are some days when it might be optional whether you want to go out and do something, but if I was, let's say going, oh, I'm not sure I've got the energy, or, yeah, let's see that what happens. He might say, well, I'm doing it, and vice versa. So invariably the psychology of missing out. fear, the fear of missing out. FOMO becomes, came a big thing. if. Christmas day was a day that needed to be a training day. whether it was, with the team, more likely without the team, I would just pop up to my local rugby pitch, whether it was in London or back home in Salisbury, if I was with my parents and, just get on and do it. there's no point missing out on opportunities that are gonna be there.

Arthur:

Wow. Thank you. How did you handle your nerves for a big game.

Richard:

this is one of the bits that I wish wasn't part of the sport, but they are, and they were an important part of me. I got nervous before games. I'm not, saying, outta control.'cause clearly I was able to play at a level I did, but. I suppose the best instance I can give you before the World Cup final, I'm in the changing room for an hour, and a half before the game, and maybe, yeah, probably even 30 minutes before the game because we haven't started the warmup and I'm there thinking to myself, I'm so nervous. Why do I put myself through this? But why? And then I'm thinking, this is a World Cup final and you are questioning whether you should be sat in this room. In this changing with these great players and with such a great thing that's about to happen. clearly we don't know whether they're gonna win or not, but this is one of the greatest opportunities you'll have in life. And you are questioning, do I wanna step foot out there? it wasn't dis debilitating. I knew I was gonna be going out there and I knew the moment that I stepped foot on the pitch to start the warmup, these nerves were gonna start dissipating. They were gonna start going away. And once kickoff happened, they're gone because we're back into instinctive side of things. You're into the competition of wanting to chase down george Gregan, you want to try and tackle, whoever it might be. you've got all these activities that are going on to distract you, and you just become a rugby player. You almost like start, blocking out some of the noise that's going on in the crowd. it just becomes a background noise. but as I say, it's, really important. The, very next week, the week after we played in the World Cup final, I arrived back in England on something like the Tuesday or the Wednesday. I popped into Saracens on the way home, and I spoke to our head coach Francois Pinaar, and he said, you two days off, but I need you to play at the weekend against Rotheram because it's 11th versus 12th in the league, and we are the bottom two teams. so I need you to train on, on, I think it was Friday. I was like, right. Okay. So yeah, that's fine.I'll have a couple of days now and then I'll come in on Friday. I'll learn

the line out calls, but the rest

Richard:

of it I'm playing. I off the cuff. I'm gonna play as just a natural rugby player who just, I'm gonna play what I see. He went, yeah, fine. I was nervous before playing Rotheram and. Not as nervous as the week before in the World Cup Final, I'm nowhere near as nervous, but I was nervous. But to me, it was an important part of knowing that I was ready for a game. I accepted the challenge of this is competition. this is, we, we wanna win, we wanna perform well. so it's part of it. So I, I, I learned to accept, but didn't mean I enjoyed, but I also knew that if I didn't have those nerves. I probably wasn't caring about the game.

Arthur:

That's really interesting.

Richard:

Do you get nervous?

Arthur:

I get quite nervous for a game, but then as what I learned from Dan Bigger, he said. People have used up that whole Saturday to come and watch you, so you shouldn't get nervous.

Richard:

Very good. There you go. Learning all the time.

Arthur:

Exactly. When playing for England or the Lions how did you handle competing for your position?

Richard:

competition was always high. you play a professional club, and you know that you've got perform well. that you know that when you join a club, you've gotta try and perform better than someone else because you want their position. you know that you've been bought in on the hope that's what you're capable of doing. So it, there, there is a realism on it. but you've gotta, you've gotta fight hard, work hard. I don't, you can't not have empathy for someone who's, you've taken their place. but ultimately, if you've, taken years to force your way into an England team. You don't wanna be giving it up easily. so whilst I was fortunate enough to play in a back row with Lawrence Dallaglio and Neil Back, we, knew that the moment it was felt that one of us or one of us wasn't performing well, or if we weren't collectively performing as a team. There was a whole line of back row forwards who wanted our position. so if you look Lewis Moody, Martin Corry, Joe Worsley, they're all guys who went on to get 70, 80 caps. But the majority of it would've been when the, myself, Lawrence, or back had well, one or more had removed along or injured. but if we hadn't have been performing well, they would've been a hundred cappers. so that's the quality of player that you had to keep out of the team. so if you move it up again to another level, you then you go to Lions, well, you're competing against all your in England colleagues, but you're also playing against the best in, the other countries. So I, do remember before the 2001. Tour, being given a heads up that it's gonna be really tight on whether you get into the test team. the one thing we haven't got is line out jumpers in the back row. So, fortunately there was a month before the tour left where I was able to utilise the skills of Dave Flatman, George Schuter Danny Grewcock, Julian White, who were all playing at Saracens at the time to learn how to jump. It was very. Ugly process to start with. they used to call me the flying helicopter'cause they used to flap me arms as I went up. but ultimately in that month I learned a new skill. and I think that's probably the important part of Do you accept competition or not? The moment you stand still as a professional rugby player or any, player of any, competition. if you're not prepared to move your game on, like likelihood is someone's catching you up from behind. So you always need to be reinventing yourself or continue to improve the, strengths of your game, as well as working on what the perceived weaknesses are.

Arthur:

Speaking about not performing well, how did you bounce back after a bad game?

Richard:

good question. sometimes, well, there's a challenge there to try and put it out your mind. sometimes, if you've had a bad game and it's because you've made mistakes. Are they uncharacteristic mistakes? are they the sort of things you just have to say, I dunno what happened today. you still carry on practicing the skill. but there's almost like an understanding of I don't think that's gonna happen again. there are other things where you just go, well, look, the opposition recognised that they believe. There's a weakness in my game, at which point you don't want anyone else to be following that trend. So you've gotta work on it and work hard on it. I would've always seen myself as a young player who made a lot of tackles. but as I started moving up, the quality of rugby, you realise the physical nature of the tackles has to be that much better.'cause the players that you're playing against now wanna run through you. so just. grabbing around the ankles and hoping that they fall over is not enough. So that, would've been one area of my, play that I had to, improve.

Arthur:

Thank you. What's the biggest Life lesson rugby has taught you that you still use today?

Richard:

you get a lot of advice. there's a lot of advice you get from varying different people. I think you've gotta, you've gotta recognise the people you trust, the people who understand you the best. you've gotta recognise that there's some people who won't be either of those, but they might be off to offer good advice. But you've gotta understand and filter it to whether you believe it's useful for you. I used the example of Jason Robinson in Rugby a man who had unbelievable footwork, the ability to accelerate over 10 meters. I might be able to increase my speed marginally over 10 meters, but I was never gonna have his agility and footwork. So there's no point. I, you can do bits and pieces, but I was never gonna get to that. But there are other players that you can copy and likewise, in life, you have a level of intelligence, you have a level of empathy, you have a level of, just understanding that people, and you've gotta work out where your skillset lies, how you can support people or how they can support you. but you, what you can't do is spend a lot of time. Listening and trying to implement things that are never gonna be you. They don't fit in with your values of life.

Arthur:

What do you miss most about playing rugby?

Richard:

I miss the camaraderie of coming off the pitch, having won a game. Yeah. That, that feeling in the changing room of a, job well done. A satisfaction of the work that you've put in during the week. has come to fruition. You're tat you've tactically nailed it. and, then, going out and possibly celebrating together. one of the greatest feelings that we'd have had after the World Cup final would've been the changing room afterwards. there was almost like a realisation that once we left the changing room, life wasn't gonna be the same. That group, were never gonna play again together. They were never gonna have the changing room experience ever again. We were never gonna play a game of rugby again. there were players that we knew were gonna retire. They hadn't said anything, but we knew we were never going out as a team again. So we had to savour it while we could.

Arthur:

Do you think rugby has changed for the better since your playing days?

Richard:

I dunno, I think there's been a lot of, effort put into making sure that our game is as safe as it can be. clearly it's, a physical sport and, but when you look at some of the, protocols, some of the initiatives that have come in, to make sure that, we look after players on the pitch, we, we've got protocols in place to, to make sure that. Players are looked after in, in days following injuries. the medical provision is unbelievable now. The opportunity to see specialists, the greater understanding. there's been a lot, of, there wasn't a lot known when, rugby was amateur and the early days of professionalism. So, we're, approaching nearly 30 years on now, so there's a lot of research there that can be used for the betterment of the modern day player.

Arthur:

Can you tell us about your role as manager for the England team? What does it entail about and what do you enjoy about it?

Richard:

yes. So, job title is England Team Manager. we have, an unbelievable, team operations who work in terms of getting all the organisation right. My, my role sits, particularly around relationship between club and country. we have a, professional game partnership, which outlines, the expectations for all the parties involved, whether it's the, yeah, the England rugby team, the RFU. The clubs, and subsequent bodies within it with the players, and we've just gotta make sure that we stick with it. It's my role to, to make sure on a day-to-day basis, when the players are in camp, that we are fulfilling our commitment to the players and the clubs, making sure, communicating well with them so they understand who's in and out. and I have a role around mentoring with some of the back rowers. Some of the back rowers were part of what, when I was Academy Ma working within the academy at Saracens, there were players that were coming through the academy. Then I subsequently took on a mentoring role. the England rugby and some of the players were still at school then, but they're all now playing for England. And some of them are established British and Irish lions players and some of them, well one of them is lucky enough to be a captain, so of the lions. So, yeah, those are all players that you like to think you've had a small part in helping to develop, understand, grow them in a way that they want to be grown. And yeah, that's one of the most important parts I think for me, is trying to help those players. and help the team. ultimately we're all there to help the team, to into great performances and win rugby matches.

Arthur:

Yeah, it's a team game. What are you most proud of in your rugby career?

Richard:

That's a tough one. do you have brothers and sisters?

Arthur:

I have one brother, older

Richard:

Yeah. Ask mum and dad, who's their favorite child. that's, there, there are so many great things that have happened, within my playing career, on the, team side of it to play in a, Winning Lion series in, South Africa in 1997. we went down there and there was no expectation for us to win that series. In fact, a lot of people within South Africa didn't believe we were gonna win the games against the provincial teams. So that was a unbelievable moment. But then you had, a longer process, which was getting the England rugby team into a position where we could actually win a World Cup. We'd had a number of failings along the way with losing important games of six Nations matches where we lost grand slams. potentially, we were being called chokers. and then to get, or to go into World Cup as favorites and, not necessarily perform at our highest level in, throughout the whole tournament. You, at the vital moments, we were winning matches and ultimately we won the final. So they're like two of the big moments. That stand out from a team perspective. very fortunate to have just been inducted into World Rugby Hall of Fame, so that was just unbelievable surreal. so there, there's lots of these moments, but, then I went back to my old rugby club and I, still go back, I try to go back a couple of times a year in Salisbury and I went to one of the vice president lunches, which would've been the first one I've, ever been able to get to in December. And it's just that ability to sit down with players. As I say that, you've known for so many years of your life and you get to the, go back to the roots of it all and enjoy the camaraderie of playing the, the players I played with, as I say, minis, juniors, adult rugby, the play or the, people who watched on the sidelines who weren't players, but they've supported you the whole way through. it's just that warm feeling of what the values of rugby can do for you. And, it's an important part for me is to, remember where I came from, and, the role that everyone played. So, I just love I love being able to go back and, spend time with those people.

Arthur:

In your view, who is or was the most complete back rower to play the game?

Richard:

I think I played against lots of players and you try and pick out what the qualities are. I think there's no doubt when we used to play against New Zealand, the All Blacks, they would have. These unbelievable open sides, players that would attack the ball in what is nor Yeah, well, what would be deemed now as the norm. But you had the likes of Marty Holah, Richie McCaw Josh Kronfeld, all these great players and, we weren't, as I say, used to'em, so trying to get'em off the ball, that it was just. Tough work. So I think there was that, but then you play against some of the South Africans and Andre Ventor, AJ Ventor, like these unbelievably uncompromising and tough players. So where would I sit on an individual? Oh, good question. And again, I haven't even mentioned George Smith. George Smith, great player. yeah, quite tough. There were times where we thought we'd got on top of him and then there'd be times where he'd just appear from nowhere. I think that's the strength of great players is that they learn to reinvent themselves and they learn to, make you believe they're, not in the game, and then all of a sudden you forget about'em and they reappear tough. I might have to come back to you on this one. Arthur, come back to me one day and ask me again. One other one per person.

Arthur:

Thank you. I just wanna say thank you so much for my podcast. I really appreciate you taking your time.

Richard:

Arthur, it's been a pleasure. I, really enjoyed it and great at what you're doing, for, the young people out there and, your work ethic in terms of the people that you are getting on your show. Well done.